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    Centrifugal Supercharger for Protege?

    An interesting article about a possible centrifugal supercharger kit for our cars. Check out: https://www.protegeclub.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=36077
    Last edited by goldstar; 08-21-2004, 12:39 PM.
    02 DX Millenium Red - The Penultimate Driving Machine
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    #2
    intriquing.
    My MAM SS Kit Install Thread | Gauge Customization kit - LEDs, icons, more! Sample:

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    99 ES 1.8 | Highlight Silver Metallic | shaved mouldings | DaveB's Brushed Gauge Rings | Llumar Tint charcoal 35 side, 20 rear; smoked mirror 18 moonroof | clear corners
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    Comment


      #3
      "#1. Why I chose a centrifugal blower over a roots blower."

      because you're stupid... that's the ONLY reason anyone uses a centrifugal supercharger.
      "Never run out of real estate, traction & ideas at the same time"
      -93 MR2, 129 ES
      ClubProtege.com Tech Articles

      Originally posted by WTF
      Remember low compression makes more space for AIR, HEEELLOOOO!

      Comment


        #4
        lol **** a supercharger, turbo is the way to go.with this supposed blower that they are piecing together, you either lose your powersteering, or your a/c, orrrrrr just turbo and keep both.
        .....HELLO MY NAME IS BEN...



        186.08whp
        225.94wtq
        torque monster!!!!
        dyno graph 8-10-and 12psi
        http://www.msprotege.com/members/THE...no%20graph.jpg
        http://videos.streetfire.net/player....0-C19CA06AF01E dyno vid

        blahblahblahblahblahblah

        Comment


          #5
          JesseSays,

          I know you have been consistently negative in reference to centrifugal superchargers vs. Roots type blowers, but I believe that each has its strengths and weaknesses.

          References:



          The main disadvantage of the Roots is that it is the least thermally efficient of all blowers. It produces a higher discharge temperature than the centrifugal because all of its compression takes place in its discharge port-there is no internal compression. Roots blowers have an adiabatic efficiency of only 50-60% whereas centrifugals are closer to 70%.

          At equal boost levels, the outlet air temperature of the centrifugal will always be substantially cooler due to its higher thermal efficiency. This difference holds whether or not intercoolers are used. At equal boost levels, the cooler the intake air, the more HP will be developed.

          The main advantage of the Roots is that it comes on boost almost instantaneously-there is no need to spool up. This is certainly an advantage in small displacement engines. However, in higher boost engines difficulties in adequately cooling the intake charge may ultimately make the centrifugal supercharger the blower of choice.

          There are other differences of course but in any case, I think further discussion is warranted before rejecting one or the other out of hand.

          02 DX Millenium Red
          02 DX Millenium Red - The Penultimate Driving Machine
          MP3 Strut Tower Bar kit; Cusco Front Lower Arm Tie Bar
          MSP Springs, Struts, Stabilizer Bars, Trailing Links, #3 Engine Mount
          Kartboy Stabilizer Bar Bushings; Nyloil Shifter Bushings; Red Line MT-90 Gear Oil
          MP3 Shifter, Knob and Aluminum Pedal Set
          Suvlights HD Wiring Harness; Osram Night Breaker H4 Bulbs; Exide Edge AGM Battery
          Summer: 5Zigen FN01R-C 16 x 7" Wheels; Yoko S.drive 205/45-16s
          Winter: Enkei OR52 16 x 7" Wheels; Falken Ziex ZE-912 205/45-16s
          Modified OEM Air Intake; Racing Beat Exhaust System; Techna-Fit SS Clutch Line
          Denso SKJ16CR-L11 Extended Tip Spark Plugs; Magnecor Wires
          Power Slot Front Brake Rotors; Techna-Fit SS Brake Lines; Hawk HPS Pads
          Red Line Synthetic Engine Oil; C/S Aluminum Oil Cap
          Cyberdyne Digital Gauges: Tach; Ambient Air Temp; Voltmeter

          Comment


            #6
            Thanks for some grounding on this issue, Goldstar. I have always wondered why there wasn't a supercharger out there. The cost issue versus a complete turbo kit ($4k vs $2.7k) almost makes up for losing the AC...
            My MAM SS Kit Install Thread | Gauge Customization kit - LEDs, icons, more! Sample:

            Replacement Stainless Steel Hex Screws for your AWR swaybar! now 19mm AND 21.5mm!

            99 ES 1.8 | Highlight Silver Metallic | shaved mouldings | DaveB's Brushed Gauge Rings | Llumar Tint charcoal 35 side, 20 rear; smoked mirror 18 moonroof | clear corners
            JVC deck w/ Infinity Reference 5x7s and 6x9s, XM Radio via Custom Mount Delphi SkyFi | Rage Vigors 17x7 metal | Potenza RE750 215/40 rubber | Espilir springs
            AWR 21.5mm Sway Bar w/adjustable endlinks & Trailing Links & Front/Rear Engine Mounts | Custom Fiberglass hood from Maz1.8T | 626 Wiper Stalk

            C-17 Pilot--Jonathan--ProTuner

            Comment


              #7
              More Information on Centrifugal Supercharger

              The supercharger that will be used for the Protege installation mentioned above is made by Powerdyne. For information on its construction, characteristics, mounting and comparison with Roots type blowers, check out the website:


              02 DX Millenium Red
              02 DX Millenium Red - The Penultimate Driving Machine
              MP3 Strut Tower Bar kit; Cusco Front Lower Arm Tie Bar
              MSP Springs, Struts, Stabilizer Bars, Trailing Links, #3 Engine Mount
              Kartboy Stabilizer Bar Bushings; Nyloil Shifter Bushings; Red Line MT-90 Gear Oil
              MP3 Shifter, Knob and Aluminum Pedal Set
              Suvlights HD Wiring Harness; Osram Night Breaker H4 Bulbs; Exide Edge AGM Battery
              Summer: 5Zigen FN01R-C 16 x 7" Wheels; Yoko S.drive 205/45-16s
              Winter: Enkei OR52 16 x 7" Wheels; Falken Ziex ZE-912 205/45-16s
              Modified OEM Air Intake; Racing Beat Exhaust System; Techna-Fit SS Clutch Line
              Denso SKJ16CR-L11 Extended Tip Spark Plugs; Magnecor Wires
              Power Slot Front Brake Rotors; Techna-Fit SS Brake Lines; Hawk HPS Pads
              Red Line Synthetic Engine Oil; C/S Aluminum Oil Cap
              Cyberdyne Digital Gauges: Tach; Ambient Air Temp; Voltmeter

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by glyph
                The cost issue versus a complete turbo kit ($4k vs $2.7k) almost makes up for losing the AC...
                Blah. I like to roll in comfort, that's one of the reasons I like the Protege so much. When you're driving in town in the summer in rush hour (going too slowly to get much air through the open windows), how hard will you be kicking yourself for that tradeoff? You can't go fast anyway.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by goldstar
                  At equal boost levels, the outlet air temperature of the centrifugal will always be substantially cooler due to its higher thermal efficiency. This difference holds whether or not intercoolers are used. At equal boost levels, the cooler the intake air, the more HP will be developed.
                  Originally posted by TheMAN
                  ever heard of a thing called an INTERCOOLER?
                  One of you is saying the will have cooler output, one of you is (apparently) saying that can be fixed. Anyone have comments? I don't know enough to sort through this without help.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by goldstar
                    JesseSays,

                    I know you have been consistently negative in reference to centrifugal superchargers vs. Roots type blowers, but I believe that each has its strengths and weaknesses.

                    References:



                    The main disadvantage of the Roots is that it is the least thermally efficient of all blowers. It produces a higher discharge temperature than the centrifugal because all of its compression takes place in its discharge port-there is no internal compression. Roots blowers have an adiabatic efficiency of only 50-60% whereas centrifugals are closer to 70%.

                    At equal boost levels, the outlet air temperature of the centrifugal will always be substantially cooler due to its higher thermal efficiency. This difference holds whether or not intercoolers are used. At equal boost levels, the cooler the intake air, the more HP will be developed.

                    The main advantage of the Roots is that it comes on boost almost instantaneously-there is no need to spool up. This is certainly an advantage in small displacement engines. However, in higher boost engines difficulties in adequately cooling the intake charge may ultimately make the centrifugal supercharger the blower of choice.

                    There are other differences of course but in any case, I think further discussion is warranted before rejecting one or the other out of hand.

                    02 DX Millenium Red

                    Sure, the issue is at similar boost levels. The issue is that similar boost levels for the centrifugal will ONLY happen at redline, as their boost is strictly dependent on RPM. At redline, you have max boost, everywhere else, you've got less, much less infact since boost levels go up exponetionally with the speed of the blades.

                    You can make an eaton more efficient... Endyn has done it, and done it well. 400+ out of a 1.5L revving under 9.

                    The thermal efficiency is lovely, but useless if you can't use it to your advantage.
                    "Never run out of real estate, traction & ideas at the same time"
                    -93 MR2, 129 ES
                    ClubProtege.com Tech Articles

                    Originally posted by WTF
                    Remember low compression makes more space for AIR, HEEELLOOOO!

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Some Comparisons of Roots Type versus Centrifugal Blowers

                      I, personally, am not taking sides, nor am I asserting the superiority of centrifugal over Roots type blowers or superchargers over turbochargers. I currently have no plans to go to FI myself but I have noted a continuing interest in superchargers by some Forum members even though several turbo kits exist. I started this thread to make people aware of the forthcoming supercharger kit being readied for the Protege and to promote discussion of the whole topic which I'm gratified to say has taken place.

                      Bearing this in mind, let me play the Devil's advocate and address some of the points raised by JesseSays and TheMAN.

                      The following information is taken directly from the FAQ section of the Powerdyne website referring to the nature of internal vs. external compression and why it makes a difference. Centrifugal blowers do not heat the intake charge to the same degree as Roots type blowers. A cooler intake charge provides a denser volume of air per pound of boost and consequently produces more power. Now, according to Powerdyne, because a dense charge of air can have the same PSI as a less dense charge of air, consider the case of a centrifugal and a Roots type both making 7 PSI of boost. Again, according to Powerdyne, the Powerdyne internal compression blower making 7 PSI boost is going to make substantially more power than a Roots type blower making the same 7 PSI boost. The reason being that, although the pressure is the same, there is less air (lower density) in the charge coming from the Roots type. Once again, according to Powerdyne, a Roots type blower has to make one or two more pounds of boost than a Powerdyne to offset this charge-air temperature difference. It is for this reason that, on a given engine, a Powerdyne blower can run one to two more pounds of boost than can a Roots type blower.

                      As TheMAN has correctly pointed out, an intercooler will reduce intake charge temperature significantly. However, consider the situation where the largest possible intercooler is employed constrained only by the available space. It's still a fact that the cooler the intake charge that enters the intercooler, the cooler the intake charge that exits the intercooler. Therefore, it would seem that even here, the centrifugal still has the thermal advantage over the Roots type.

                      Incidently, since the Powerdyne requires no engine oil supply for lubrication, the additional heat supplied by the hot engine oil is absent from the supercharger housing.

                      JesseSays states that a failing of the centrifugal blower is that it only produces significant power at high blower RPM. It's true that the Roots type, being a constant displacement pump, puts out high boost at low RPM. However, again turning to Powerdyne's FAQ section, Powerdyne has developed what they call a Hyperdyne Impeller which is very similar to that used in a turbocharger. This impeller supposedly produces a cooler intake charge and can deliver more total air at a given blower speed which equates to more power and torque, especially at lower engine speeds. According to Powerdyne, this combination of reduced blower heat as a result of no engine oil in addition to the reduced charge temperature because of the advanced impeller design yields substantially more power at a given boost level than is the case with other centrifugal blowers.

                      Manufacturers overstatement or hype or a real breakthrough in centrifugal supercharger design? You be the judge.

                      02 DX Millenium Red
                      02 DX Millenium Red - The Penultimate Driving Machine
                      MP3 Strut Tower Bar kit; Cusco Front Lower Arm Tie Bar
                      MSP Springs, Struts, Stabilizer Bars, Trailing Links, #3 Engine Mount
                      Kartboy Stabilizer Bar Bushings; Nyloil Shifter Bushings; Red Line MT-90 Gear Oil
                      MP3 Shifter, Knob and Aluminum Pedal Set
                      Suvlights HD Wiring Harness; Osram Night Breaker H4 Bulbs; Exide Edge AGM Battery
                      Summer: 5Zigen FN01R-C 16 x 7" Wheels; Yoko S.drive 205/45-16s
                      Winter: Enkei OR52 16 x 7" Wheels; Falken Ziex ZE-912 205/45-16s
                      Modified OEM Air Intake; Racing Beat Exhaust System; Techna-Fit SS Clutch Line
                      Denso SKJ16CR-L11 Extended Tip Spark Plugs; Magnecor Wires
                      Power Slot Front Brake Rotors; Techna-Fit SS Brake Lines; Hawk HPS Pads
                      Red Line Synthetic Engine Oil; C/S Aluminum Oil Cap
                      Cyberdyne Digital Gauges: Tach; Ambient Air Temp; Voltmeter

                      Comment


                        #12
                        ok, that's still skirting the issue though.


                        you can only get max boost at redline. And boost is dependent on the blade speed directly, and exponetionally. Meaning that at half of redline, say 3500 rpm, you've only got a quarter of the max boost setting. It doesn't matter how efficient it is at that point, because you'll still be FAR off the power levels of a roots blower.

                        The issue here is not which will have a higher number on the dyno. Given the same boost levels, the centrifugal should put down bigger peak numbers. However, power under the curve is going to goto the Roots, and that's where streetability and torque everywhere come into play, and the centrifugals just can't measure up. If you want peak power, and drag racing, go get a turbo. That answer is easy.

                        As to their hyperdyne impeller. Well, yeah, in theory, the impeller works just like a turbo, except seeing lower speeds, and therefore, are usually sized larger to make up the difference, and that in and of itself increases efficiency, but it's still losing the battle because it can't produce full boost until redline. That's the problem with being directly connected to the engine, while not being a positive displacement blower.

                        A turbo can just use a wastegate and can be sized so that it spools quickly. Sure, you could do the same on a centrifugal, but then your parasitic losses are larger, and you have issues with efficiency somewhere within the rpm band in producing power.

                        Again, you can talk about thermal efficiency all you want, but I'm going to take a 10 psi non-efficient roots blower at 3000 rpm over a VERY efficient 2.5 psi centrifugal supercharger at the same RPM every day when I'm trying to pull out of a corner or accelerate into traffic.

                        Of course powerdyne is going to hype their product... they're out there to MAKE money. And of course they're going to skirt the downsides of their product.
                        "Never run out of real estate, traction & ideas at the same time"
                        -93 MR2, 129 ES
                        ClubProtege.com Tech Articles

                        Originally posted by WTF
                        Remember low compression makes more space for AIR, HEEELLOOOO!

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Thanks for your post Jesse. It was very interesting and informative and I learned something new about the topic as I'm sure was the case for other Forum members. One of your main points, I believe, is that the superior thermal efficiency of the centrifugal blower doesn't trump its lower boost below redline as compared with the Roots type. In other words, for best low speed torque, the Roots type would seem to have the edge. Something for those going the supercharger route to think about.

                          02 DX Millenium Red
                          02 DX Millenium Red - The Penultimate Driving Machine
                          MP3 Strut Tower Bar kit; Cusco Front Lower Arm Tie Bar
                          MSP Springs, Struts, Stabilizer Bars, Trailing Links, #3 Engine Mount
                          Kartboy Stabilizer Bar Bushings; Nyloil Shifter Bushings; Red Line MT-90 Gear Oil
                          MP3 Shifter, Knob and Aluminum Pedal Set
                          Suvlights HD Wiring Harness; Osram Night Breaker H4 Bulbs; Exide Edge AGM Battery
                          Summer: 5Zigen FN01R-C 16 x 7" Wheels; Yoko S.drive 205/45-16s
                          Winter: Enkei OR52 16 x 7" Wheels; Falken Ziex ZE-912 205/45-16s
                          Modified OEM Air Intake; Racing Beat Exhaust System; Techna-Fit SS Clutch Line
                          Denso SKJ16CR-L11 Extended Tip Spark Plugs; Magnecor Wires
                          Power Slot Front Brake Rotors; Techna-Fit SS Brake Lines; Hawk HPS Pads
                          Red Line Synthetic Engine Oil; C/S Aluminum Oil Cap
                          Cyberdyne Digital Gauges: Tach; Ambient Air Temp; Voltmeter

                          Comment


                            #14
                            correct... sure, from 6200 rpm to 7000 rpm, you'll have more power with the centifugal, but you're not in that area THAT long, and the superior power in the rest of the powerband is worth it...IMO.
                            "Never run out of real estate, traction & ideas at the same time"
                            -93 MR2, 129 ES
                            ClubProtege.com Tech Articles

                            Originally posted by WTF
                            Remember low compression makes more space for AIR, HEEELLOOOO!

                            Comment


                              #15
                              It's funny, I haven't seen this type of in-depth discussion in the threads written by the people who are actually designing this kit. It doesn't really inspire much confidence in them. Saying "We're using a centrifugal SC instead of roots because it's better for the application" doesn't help.

                              Comment

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