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View Full Version : How did YOU estimate how much deadener you needed?



Kevin
12-29-2003, 06:26 AM
Well, i know Dave Cameron is the one who has taken on this project, but as part of my 'revamp' for my car, i want to see how feasible it would be to do the entire floor pan of my car and the doors (forget the roof liner). main idea being killing the road noise in my first gen lx. only thing is, i want something i can just throw down (entire floor pan fully stripped and cleaned prior) and not take me more than say 6 hours for a solid 1 full layer covering everything from bottom foot of firewall to underneath the back seat cushion. i am very comfortable tearing the carpet, seats and cushions out.. and cleaning i couldn't imagine taking that long with a vaccum cleaner and some simple green. the only thing i don't understand is should i use a foil backed product for the entire project? what mil thickness would you recommend me throwing down? how many square feet could i be looking at. i can't find dave's numbers for the mazda speed, but if somebody could give me a rough guestimate, it would be much appricieated. by my 5 minute measuring job, i was gauging about 70 sq ft to do all four doors and the floor.. does this sound about right? thanks for your help ahead of time :)
peace

blue LEDz
12-29-2003, 10:02 AM
well, if you really want to reduce road noise, you could try some of this:
http://www.b-quiet.com/vcomp.html

standard mat isn't going to do that much for blocking road noise:( it's more for reducing sheet metal vibrations. i've tried some carpet padding over the foil backed mat for great results. unfortunately i haven't found a good cure all for reduced road noise and sheet metal insulation:( the new e-dead stuff might be better at reducing road noise than mat, but i'm not sure, since i haven't tried it. 70 sq feet was enough to do my roof twice and my floor once, so it might be enough to do your floor and doors. i'd recomend doing a layer of mat on the outer metal of your door, and the inner metal. worry about your doors before your floor. all your floor might need is a quick spray with truck bed liner to seal it up better, and a layer of carpet padding, which you can get for pretty damned cheap, if not free from a local carpet place. just ask for large scraps;)

Kevin
12-30-2003, 10:49 AM
eh, i bit the bullet and decided to get 80 sq ft of e-dead v.1. not really sure how much i really bought as in terms of what 80 sq ft will cover, but i figure twice on the doors, a close to solid sheet on the floor pan, and a realignment of my trunklid. now being as the temperature will probably be lower than 50 degrees outside maybe down to thirty, i'm banking on having a heat gun to make the application go smoothly. is there anything else obvious that you can think of that i should use on this baby to make sure it'll adhere? thanks a bunch
peace

blue LEDz
12-30-2003, 12:08 PM
get a wallpaper roller to apply it;) a pair of utility scissors and a box cutter with extra blades:biggrin: you don't need to clean up the metal before you apply it, but i'd recomend it, just make sure whatever you clean it with dries thoroughly before you apply it. and of course beer, lots of beer:p: bandaids too, just in case you cut yourself;)

Intruder
12-31-2003, 03:41 AM
Originally posted by blue LEDz
get a wallpaper roller to apply it;) a pair of utility scissors and a box cutter with extra blades:biggrin: you don't need to clean up the metal before you apply it, but i'd recomend it, just make sure whatever you clean it with dries thoroughly before you apply it. and of course beer, lots of beer:p: bandaids too, just in case you cut yourself;)

one thing I would add is gloves or something to cover either your hands or the roller...
when I was doing this to my car I found out that after a while it got painful to roll the deadener. some of the sticky goo from it got on the roller and the thing got really sticky. so sticky that after using it for a while it would exfoliate your skin and that ain't nice! I used some rubber gloves the second day but then my hands got sweaty and felt sticky inside the gloves... yuck .... then I resorted to just using the paper used to cover "the glue" on the deadener to wrap the handle of the roller and hold it that way...

oh yeah, I assume you would know that already but just in case -- don't wear anything you wouldn't mind throwing away. :biggrin: this ****'s messy and it's impossible to wash off of clothes... so be careful.

I used 70sq feet of Brown Bread and it was enough to cover the rear dash, the floor, half the trunk bed (nothing on the trunk lid) and the two front doors (inside and out). All this, although not the end of the project since I ran out of material, noticeably lowered the road noise and prevented (I can't say eliminated cuz I didn't have a subwoofer at the time) all rattle inside of my car. The only things that rattle right now are my sideview mirrors and my license plate but I didn't use brown bread on those. ;)

go to the old forum (p...club.com) and do a search for brown bread if you want to read more about my experience with this. the thread is titled "Brown bread - dynamat alternative" or something similar to that.

Good luck! It ain't easy...

Intruder
12-31-2003, 03:47 AM
Originally posted by demoninvictus
Well, i know Dave Cameron is the one who has taken on this project......

IMO, Dave Cameron is THE MAN when it comes to sound deadening! He helped me out tremendously with his advise.


Originally posted by demoninvictus
...by my 5 minute measuring job, i was gauging about 70 sq ft to do all four doors and the floor.. does this sound about right? thanks for your help ahead of time :)
peace

I had 70sq feet of B-QUIET Brown Bread.
I used a lot of material to cover the trunk area so if I were to use it on the doors instead and had 10sq feet more, I would have had enough to cover the rear doors as well. So, yeah, I guess you will have enough.

blue LEDz
12-31-2003, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by Intruder
one thing I would add is gloves or something to cover either your hands or the roller...
when I was doing this to my car I found out that after a while it got painful to roll the deadener. some of the sticky goo from it got on the roller and the thing got really sticky. so sticky that after using it for a while it would exfoliate your skin and that ain't nice! I used some rubber gloves the second day but then my hands got sweaty and felt sticky inside the gloves... yuck .... then I resorted to just using the paper used to cover "the glue" on the deadener to wrap the handle of the roller and hold it that way...




*cough*pansy*cough*
:biggrin:
i guess my hands are so calused (sp?) i don't notice things like that anymore;) but gloves do help for the sharp edges, cause i do remember cutting myself a few times:p: if you want a protective layer on your skin that lasts 3-4 days, get some polyurethane glue and cover them:biggrin: that crap won't come off once it dries. you can't even peel it off:( it just has to wear off:rolleyes:

Kevin
12-31-2003, 02:12 PM
well, i'm actually looking at the possibility of picking up a nice set of Mechanix (sp) brand gloves.. my buddy who helped me deaden my trunk with 12 sq feet of this crap, so i have a good idea (yes, i've already got a Tsunami trunk kit lining the trunk). likewise, this doesn't bother me as i know what i'm in for, the only thing i'm worried about is the temperature!!?? and also, can rip out my carpet and seats and do this project over a few days and still rest my feet on the areas that i've done? at any rate, roller, mechanix gloves and actually, the butt of a screw driver (one of those 6 in one screw drivers) seems to be what he was recommending to me. as far as purposely coating my hands in polyurethane.. forget it bud :p likewise, thanks for your help fellas.
peace

Intruder
12-31-2003, 02:23 PM
temperature - I didn't have to heat the material. I was doing it on a hot summer day and all I had to do was cut it... and stick it. :)

mechanix gloves -- I don't think you would be able to peel the protective layer with those gloves and it would be a hassle to take the gloves off all the time. unless you use only one glove. :)

resting your feet on the areas you've done -- IMO, not necessary... make sure you roll it nice and you won't have to rest your feet on it. besides, gravity will keep the material in place. it's not like you'll be covering your roof. :) the doors are OK too... just make sure the material is warm and soft when you apply it, then roll and roll and roll and roll..... and you'll be fine. unless there's a fundamental difference between Brown Bread and eDead you shouldn't have any problems following this procedure...

Kevin
01-01-2004, 03:46 PM
oye, i wasted the money on 3-day shipping, only to find out from ed that the shipping will take longer as i placed the order during hte holiday season... DOH'!!! at anyrate, blueledz.. intruder.. is 45 mils a good thickness for deadener? i mean i know they make the overkill crap the v2 thats 60 mils, and FATMAT makes 80 mil stuff. anyway, thanks for your help, i'll keep you posted with some pics when i take on this project.
peace

Intruder
01-01-2004, 03:58 PM
Originally posted by demoninvictus
at anyrate, blueledz.. intruder.. is 45 mils a good thickness for deadener? i mean i know they make the overkill crap the v2 thats 60 mils, and FATMAT makes 80 mil stuff.

It depends on your application. If you use it for rattling I guess you can go with the thin stuff. If you want maximum amounts of sound deadening (road noise elimination) you have to use the thickest possible -- the thicker the wall, the better the isolation.

For example, the material I used is 63mil thick while eDead v2 is 60mil (eDead v1 is thinner, so unless it is a superior material it won't provide as much deadening as Brown Bread). On the other hand, I paid $115 for 70sq feet, while you must have paid close to $100. :)

And last - here's a comparison chart for Brown Bread and Dynamat. You can see that the B-QUIET stuff is much better and much cheaper. http://www.b-quiet.com/compare.html


Originally posted by demoninvictus
anyway, thanks for your help, i'll keep you posted with some pics when i take on this project.
peace

I'm happy to help. :) And pics... lots of 'em! :)

blue LEDz
01-01-2004, 05:51 PM
i used rammat that's 60 mils thick. basically the same as brown bread;) and i paid $103 shipped for 70 sq ft:biggrin:

Kevin
01-01-2004, 07:22 PM
$127 shipped 3 day for 80sq ft of 45 mil edead v.1. it's not bad for me, considering i'm not paypal verified (could have had 70 sqft of brownbead for under 115 shipped). even with that, i get alot of rattling inhibited by the exhaust around 3,000 rpms, so a solid single coat on the floor and some additional carpet padding will have to do for the floor. but 2 coats at a total of 90 mils on each door and possibly up the firewall a bit should help me out big time :). i really havent done the mathematics as far as measuring as i'm not smart enough to try and figure out how much the hump for the console in the center would take to cover, however, 80 square feet should be close enough. i'll call elemental designs and for a few bucks more, i'll down to the ground shipping and pick up an extra 20 square feet. just hope they haven't shipped or packed it up yet :p:
peace

Kevin
01-06-2004, 07:16 PM
welp, the **** finally came in the mail, a foot wide and 80 feet long.. however cut into 3 seperate rolls and shipped in 2 seperate boxes. this is some decent quality ****.. i'd love to know who makes it for elemental designs, but even still should do the job nicely. to compliment the e-dead, i went out and bought 60 square feet of hartex synthetic 'hair' carpet padding for the floor and possibly the doors. basically, this stuff is supposed to have a long life and prevent moisture build up. application process might not start until next week, but the stripping of the interior happens on thursday.. i'll have the carpet/padding, floor mats, center console out and the floor cleaned.. so is my goal, but i can only do so much in 32 degree weather... i wish i got this **** last week, it was warm as hell :(. likewise.. a little slice of this crap attatched to a campbells soup can and a lighter (give me a break, i was bored and was curious if the **** would stick), this puppy ain't going nowhere once i get 300 degrees out of a heat gun fired at it :). keep ya posted.. and pics as soon as possible :p:
peace

Kevin
01-08-2004, 06:19 PM
well, after 6 straight hours of sitting on the cold hard floor pan of my car and 1 cut and 1 burn from the dull razor and my heat gun, the floor pan is complete. it was about 35 degrees out all day, so i let the car run most of the time to keep the cabin of the car warm. didn't get that far up the firewall, but managed to get close to 95% of the floor pan fully covered, the other areas, i'm not too concerned about. but the one question for you guys is, is it alright to use multiple pieces of the matting, cause with the shape of the floor pan, i wasn't able to use pieces more than 10x12 inches. it seems that i have way too much left over, so i'm going to probably beef the doors up a bit, do the rear dash again, and if any is left over, do another solid coat on the trunk lid. took about 35 square feet to complete 1 door and the entire floor pan and under the rear seat cushion. i'm happy with the coverage as the hartex will carry over the gaps and help do the real bulk of the insulation. at anyrate.. didn't get entirely too dirty, and all i used was a screw driver, wall paper seem roller, a disposeable razor blade, and 1200 watt heat gun (mofo gets to about 1400 degrees on high :flamed:
peace

blue LEDz
01-08-2004, 07:55 PM
for contoured areas, i cut as large a piece as possible, and layer as best i can. for my floor, i cut strips about 2 foot wide, and the length from the center to the outer edge. then i overlapped them a few inches for complete coverage.

Kevin
01-14-2004, 07:01 PM
welp so far, no true full progress, just got the driver's side doors completed for now, still have the front passenger's side door left, then some padding and deadener on the back dash, i should be good to go. let me tell you, that 3M spray adhesive **** works like a charm.. won't hold any weight, but at least it holds the **** inplace :) keep ya updated and eventually some pictures of the progress either once the entire project is complete or once my dispossable runs out of film :bash:
peace

dacinokc
01-15-2004, 08:45 PM
Demon- I just got to the board to read, sorry for not having written sooner. The holidays are a very hetic time for me personally.
Sounds like you are working really hard on the deadening. It can be a very fun project, and you really end up getting to know your car quite well by the end of the experence! :)
I am extremely flattered by all the nice comment about me in this thread.
Lets see- Quickest way I ever figured to caculate the amount needed is to do a two diemensional measurement like left to right and front to back, and then add 15% for wastage, overlap and those pesky interior third diemensions- up and down! If you can afford 20% overage, I would say do it! Overtime I have gotten large amounts of deadening and keep it as stock in the shop, but honesty, I find ways to use every bit I allocate to a project, I have not ended up with surplus deadening!!
The thickness of the deadening is not as important and the material used in the deadening. A good way to figure that out is the look at the shipping weight for a particular size of roll, and caculate the weight by per foot. Denser is better. Adhesion is another matter, it has varied by manufacturer for me over the years. I try not to name names, but a couple of the bigger names just do stick up over time. :flamed:
Good prep is the best way to get some chance of adhesion. I often spend as much time as on the prep and anything. For the floor plan it is not as dire a business, but for vertical surfaces it is vital, and trunks it is plan critical.
Two of the other big varables are temperature while installing, and humidity. Winter is not really the best time to be working with deadening. Good Luck for that!
You mention is it alright to user smaller pieces, and the answer is yes- not only is it OK, but is the best way to install deadening, like a giant overlapping patchwork quilt. Larger hunks of deadening are hard to move around, hard to lay correctly, and hard to roll for good adhesion. Small pieces work great for contours and on vertical surfaces, and by overlapping, you end up with a cumulative effect more like one and a half layers through out the car. The downside is it means a lot more cutting and rolling and work in general, but it pays off.
I would not worry about resting my feet or body on the stuff once applied, the weight will only add to the adhesion in the long run. The only thing to aviod is getting the stuff wet, so try not to drop too many cool ones on the floor. This also helps with those "informational roadblocks" the supreme court just said were constitutional. Jeez will we all sit and watch our rights dissappear? But I digress- :rolleyes:
The doors of a Protege are a interestng hunk of work. Many cars attempt to have the exterior/interior seal right at the external metal edges, the inside of the body sheet metal. Not so the Protege, the interior cavity of the doors is designed for water to come though it should it need to, notice the small drains on the bottom of the door. Instead the clear plastic adhered to the interior side of the door right under the interior panels is where the protege draws it lines.
For deadening this has a bit of impact. Water is death to most deadening materials, so the focus needs to be on right under that plastic layer, and then the re-install of the plastic barrier. On the MSP project, I have actually removed the doors, dis-assembled them, and deadened on the all metal surfaces, and then reassembled them. I still however did re-install the barrier.
Also, doors are a place where the patch work plan doesn't work out well, and larger sheets do. I would install the deadening on the beams of the door and in particular about the front speaker location, and then lay larger sheets over that. Deadening seems to like adhereing to deadening, so this works well.
Sorry to be abrupt, I need to go work on homework with my duaghter (it's time!!! :sad: ) The stuff is getting harder, and soon I won't be able to help out at this rate!
I will add more to this post or dither on in another soon.
The project sounds great- let me know how I can help!

blue LEDz
01-15-2004, 09:19 PM
great write up dave;) glad to see you on the board:)

Kevin
01-15-2004, 09:22 PM
welp, dave, if you were my father, you would be greatly displeased i must admit :(. i didn't concentrate my deadening on specifics, nor full blanket coats, just patches to keep rattles down.. however, the floor pan has JUST about an entire coat.. probably about 35 square feet.. and i'd estimate 90% coverage. my idea in that was the 2 layers of hartex synthetic carpet padding underneath the carpet would be sufficient enough for my purposes.. increasing bass response and killing some road noise. truely, i'm an amature at this, and as such, it looks that way as well. my job involves ALOT of driving.. as such, i needed to kill some noise for means of maintaining my sanity!! so far, results have been promising.. i have pictures, it's just a matter of when i get done, i'll have some results to show for it. so far, i've managed to nail down the floor pan, the driver's doors.. just my back dash, front passenger's door, and some trunk patching remain. i have a lot of interior bass rattle on top of exterior rattle, so as far as deadening the vibrant sounds, this application should be more than ideal. i kept the car warm enough to manage wearing shorts and a t-shirt in 20 degree and below weather, 1400 degree 2 stage heat gun, and plenty of alcohol (which explains moreso why i have a few burns on my arms :flamed: ) i think i've faired out pretty well for an amature dynamater :). i'll keep you posted.
kevin

dacinokc
01-15-2004, 11:00 PM
Heck Kevin- in the real world this is the best way to do your deadening project, focus on the places where sound is now! :) I would suggest bolting the drivers seat back in, and then have a friend drive you around on all types of roads. Then you should crawl around and listen for sounds, creaks and groans, vibrations or places of sound leaks from the outside, and focus on those areas for any remaining deadening.
Then add the front passenger seat, and do the same, then add the rear panel and do the same, and then the rear seats and do the same- you get the idea!
Total deadening does not add as much to the sound floor level as most folks would hope or think. I have had many conversations on the subject over the years,and have played with sound meters many a time trying to measure the benefits, and they seem to be only a couple of Db at best added via deadening, and that is a hardcore job.
The three big advantages you will get will be reducing road noise, reducing rattles, and not having your stereo be as loud and bothersome outside of the car itself to others. I have always enjoyed having tunes cranked up but having the car not thumping and bothering others on the outside at all. That has been my objective and signature of full deadening jobs over the years.
Your use of carpet lining is also one of my favorite methods of deadening, and the carpet and padding is the difference between a Acura and a Protege in terms of interior noise levels. PG used to make a nice acoustic deadening carpet and acoustic carpet padding. When I was told they were going to drop the stuff, I bought every bit of it my distrbutor had and then some. I have rolls in the loft of the shop in various colors. I swear by it.
For the weight and ease of install, it is a quick and easy win in order to improve sound background of a floorpan..
I have almost as many scars from heat guns and exacto knifes as I got from 15+ years of military service! Ceate some good bar stories of your injuries, but remeber the folks who really get in the **** don't talk about their exploits very much, so make them vauge mysteries- girls will love it! :angel:
So no, as a dad I would be proud of the thought, ingenuity, and the work you have put in to the project. You would be a son after my own heart. As they used to tell us in the military, your mind is your primary weapon, and it sounds like so far you have been using it very well.
Time for me to do my homework and then try to get a few hours shut down time.
I promise I will try to watch the boards a little more closely, as I really enjoy the community here very much and feel as though every here are friends-
Good luck and again, let me know what I might be able to do to assit in this or anyother projects!

blue LEDz
01-16-2004, 07:07 AM
I have almost as many scars from heat guns and exacto knifes as I got from 15+ years of military service! Ceate some good bar stories of your injuries, but remeber the folks who really get in the **** don't talk about their exploits very much, so make them vauge mysteries- girls will love it! :angel:


that is so true:) kevin, if you get too far into a story, just say it's hard to talk about and force your eyes to water and the chicks will be all over you :blue: