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    Mild NA Build Up (Transfer from PC.com)

    Transfered this thread from ProtegeClub for sake of prosperity.

    Posted 2002-12-19 @ 15:48 by zenilder


    Hey... Been a while since I last posted.

    I am having my mechanic machine my engine for me, but I have a question regarding the crank. The DOHC engine that I paid 150 for from a guy I know on the EGT list landed up being F'd. The block itself was already .5 mil over, and the crank was 10/10, as the mechanic put it. I already bought Miata pistons that are a quarter over, so I can't use that block. The crank was bad, so I couldn't even use that. I landed up pulling the spare SOHC engine I had in storage to take to my mechanic. As it has been found, the SOHC crank is cast... Will I have problems down the line?

    I'm not going to build up a purely street NA engine here, so I'm not going to make massive power. Prolly around 200hp with what I'm putting together. Will the cast crank handle this okay?

    For those who want to know exactly what I'm putting together:
    1. A P&P'd gude DOHC head with "15 hp" (claimed from the guy I spoke with at Gude, but the jerk never gave me a straight answer to whether or not the cams were from him) cams. The head is shaved also.

    2. Miata pistons, 10:1

    3. Custom built cam gears by the mechanic for timing purposes

    4. Injectors flow tested and matched

    A few other things here and there, but these are the most important regarding power production.

    For now, I'll have to run off a DOHC ecu. I'm not going to race it much or drive it hard in fear that it might run too lean. Have to save up a little to get the Wolf 3D EMS I want from Wolf EMS.
    I'll prolly only land up putting on an adjustable fuel regulator and a higher-rated fuel pump.

    Any other suggestions are welcome.

    Thanks in advance.
    Posted 2002-12-19 @16:00 by zenilder


    Hrm. Just came across something which changes my idea about flow testing and matching my injectors, so I may be replacing them after all.

    Anyone know good replacements that will fit without problems?


    Well, I searched around for a bit and looks like I'll try a set from a 89.5-92 Toyota Supra non turbo at 305cc (light green top) first, and if it still runs a high duty cycle, then I'm going to pop in some from a 91 B2600 truck at 326cc.

    I'll keep looking...
    Posted 2002-12-19 @ 17:18 by Davard


    The stock ECU will be the first big limitation on a HP build-up. One member of the EGT list put a lot of money into building up his BP (all of what you mentioned plus 11:1 pistons) and only managed 120 whp. Of course, his $2 autozone water pump alternator belt coming on his first dyno pull probably didn't help things. (His car overheated during the second dyno pull).

    You really need to go with an aftermarket ECU to make the most out of your mods.

    Oh, and 200hp is hardly a "mild" N/A motor.
    Posted 2002-12-20 @ 12:33 by PseudoRealityX


    The cams needed on a BP for 200 CRANK hp are still VERY wild. Sadly, although very possible, the BP isnt an easy motor to build into a NA monster. An easy way to gain hp would be to raise the redline a bit. Possibly 8000-8500. Stiffer springs, and solid lifters would be a REALLY REALLY good idea. Again, cams are what's going to really help out. There is also quite a bit of power to be found in both the intake and exhaust manifolds, but now youre getting into a bit more fab work. Also, 10.0:1 is awfully low as well from what you want your goals at....but if you already have it...

    Since the motor is apart, do the rold bolts. Try to pickup a set of ARP or someone similar. If anything's going to grenade, its them.

    As Davard said, TUNING IS EVERYTHING. A stand alone is the ONLY way to go. For injectors, GTX injectors arent horribly expensive, and they are 330s, which will be all the fuel you need in an NA BP.
    Posted 2002-12-20 @ 09:00 by zenilder


    True, I don't know that the cams will help out greatly. The guy said he'll take a look at them, and if I can do better with a regrind of the stock ones, he'll recommend the regrind.

    I still have to run the pistons up to him so he can actually start machining everything, which I'll do today around lunch. I'll mention to him the bolts. It was definitely on my list, but I don't have a good tap set on hand so I'll land up asking if he can do it (a little extra money, but worth it IMO).

    Well, my goals for the engine are not for massive power. If I don't reach 200hp, then that is cool. I'd be happy with 150 at the wheels.
    I just wanted to build a slightly stronger engine than most Pros.

    Yes, putting solid lifters from toda was something I was thinking about, but I certainly won't be doing it right now. Cash contraints. I'll prolly put them in sometime next year, or, heck, if I can't stand the HLAs after I have the engine built, I'll splurge for a set.

    Stiffer springs are something I'll have to research into. I remember reading somewhere that someone found double springs for the 1.6, but I do not know if they are applicable for the 1.8.
    Jesse, know of anything off-hand?

    The intake and exhaust will come eventually when I have time and money. I think the stock DOHC VICS mani will do okay for now. I already have a POS Corksport header that I bought off GroHarlem, so I'm sure I'll get a bit more power out of that than with the stock exhaust mani. On the intake side, the only thing I'm doing for it now will be to buy a PRM intake system with a RX-7 MAF. I'm not sure if I want to do a CAI as of yet, as it's been raining here in socal, and I would fear for my engine if I were to put a CAI in. I might adapt something so I can switch it out easily when it rains and back again when it's sunny.

    True, 10:1 is low, but I didn't have the money to have custom pistons made to have 11:1 or higher. Plus, I don't want to build an interference motor, but the engine may land up being one as it is.

    Yeah, I know my power is within the use of a stand-alone. The system I want is 1500 so it's going to be a bit till I purchase it. I'm already sold on a Wolf 3D from reading about it and a buddie from down under recommending it, as he uses one for his Datto. The system also has a nice secruity feature.

    Hrm. We'll see. I really know I need the EMS, but it's kind of hard right now.

    Thanks for all the input. Please continue to comment if ya like!
    Posted 2002-12-20 @ 11:44 by PseudoRealityX


    I know you'll hate to hear it, but Id REALLY recommend doing the Stand alone first. Get used to how to work eveything with a motor thats not being pushed as much.

    By the way, here is the "hamfisted" built NA engine from the EGT guy.

    This is what happens when you try to run 11.5:1 pistons, full gude head, header, etc etc....on the STOCK ECU and VAF with NO other tuning.


    Posted 2002-12-20 @ 12:50 by turboge


    Donnie still has that motor available for sale I believe. If I was going to build a real racer i'd stick it in with the haltech and tune the piss out of it on 116 octane.
    Posted 2002-12-20 @ 13:16 by MazdaRacer


    wow, the ECU is a bottleneck, as i came close that with mere bolt ons. (115whp) That torque curve doesn't look as nice as mine either

    and Braden hit 120whp with just a Haltech and 3" exhaust....mmmmm
    Posted 2002-12-20 @ 15:17 by zenilder


    Thanks for all the input.

    I talked the mechanic today and discussed my options regarding the crank. He could do a couple of things: use the cast or build up the bad crank. So I told him go ahead and weld up/grind the throw that was bad on the forged crank. He's going to do some head work that will help (minor things, which can help air flow). He also threw the idea of dropping in some solid lifters with shims from a VW if the measurements are okay, and depending on that, he'll either regrind the cams for solid lifters or not. Either way, he's going to look over the cams and see what the best option is. If no go on the solid lifters, it'll either be the cams that came along with the gude head I bought, or regrind. Otherwise, I'll have to pop for, which I don't want to do considering the price for their set.

    The gude head I bought from GroHarlem had already been milled, but he said he'll go back and measure the clearances to see if he can mill it a bit more.

    As for fuel... Well, we talked about swapping in other injectors. I was thinking about putting a set from the list a mentioned, buying a high-rate fuel pump, and an adjustable pressure regulator (but I'm not thinking about building up the pressure so I can -force- more fuel through the injectors. no, I know that's not going to happen).

    Let's see...

    We decided to put a bit more clearance on the bottom end.

    I told him I could bring in a set of the valve springs to be measured. He said this engine most likely won't need stiffer springs for higher rpms (so long as we put in the solid lifters), but he hasn't measured the springs yet. So we'll see. I'll run the springs up to him tomorrow.

    I'll prolly check with the California distributor for Wolf EMS to double check the price. I know they recently released a number of new models so I'm hoping the price has dropped on the one I want. I really know the importance of the role a stand alone will play here, but I'm really restricted by money.


    The machining he's going to do for me will run about 750 - 850 for all that he's going to do. The pistons and gaskets I already bought ran 800-something. So a 1500 EMS is going to be a bit much right now. Six months down the line, it won't be such a problem. So I'm waiting to see how things work out...

    Again, please keep the comments coming.
    Bryan
    MOCC MEMBER

    -"Mean people rule."

    Originally posted by midnightblue97
    Thought the oil pump was run off the timing belt??

    #2
    Posted 2003-02-04 @ 09:25 by beachnut


    Ok, I thought I'd tag onto this thread since it's already started ...

    I'm trying to decide which route to ultimately take my Pro. After reading all the turbo threads here, I'm leaning that way but I was thinking I might do it when my current engine blows up and do a BPT swap. However at 157K, that may take a while (at least I hope) and I'd like to get some speed sooner, so I'm looking at Braden's turbo kit too. I doubt that I'll ever autox or run at the strip, but you never know. Geez I'm a 40 y.o. fossil, yet I refuse to grow up, lol ! I would really like to get ~200hp at the wheels, anything over that is probably overkill for me and the car.

    Anyway, I bought some AEM adj cams gears on eBay the other day. Don't know why, guess I got the twitchy bid-finger! I've been thinking about getting some Corksport cams, so I thought I'd get these gears while there was an opportunity. Most everything I've read elsewhere says I should get ~10-15hp gain, but a lot of you guys here like David, Darryl, and Jesse don't necessarily agree, and your points are well taken.

    If you can't tell by now, let me just say that I'm not a mechanic or a racer, just mechanically inclined. I've never rebuilt an engine, so I doubt if I could put the cams in myself. My buddy with the '91 DX is shying away from the job; he does rebuild and has a nice TA that he runs at the strip. He said it'd be almost better to pull the engine just to put the cams in - is it really that hard? And if I decided to do something sooner like Braden's turbo bolt-on, would the cams be money wasted? Plus, are they any other mods that would be good to do with an eventual turbo path in mind?
    Posted 2003-02-04 @ 15:30 by Davard


    Actually, nothing could be farther from the truth. While it is true that you'd be better off pulling a V--8, especially in a TA, to do a cam swap, with the Protege, it's only a little harder than pulling off the valve cover and changing the timing belt. Yes, it would be easier to do out of the car (everything is easier to do out of the car, including autocrossing for most people ), but it's not necessary. Everything is right there on top of the motor.
    Posted 2003-02-04 @ 17:17 by zenilder


    Well, I need a bit of advice once again.

    I've been thinking about my fuel system problem lately. I was wondering if it would be better to install another set of injectors? Since I am leaning towards a standalone, I'm read this would be an ideal configuration to save idle. if I did, I'm not sure where exactly on the intake mani I would put them, but I thought maybe on the bottom side of the intake runners, opposite of the stock injectors.

    Again, just a thought and would like to see what others think.
    Posted 2003-02-04 @ 17:26 by midnightblue97


    I'd just get bigger injectors and install them in the stock location. I think it would be too much of a pain in the ass to wire up a second set of injectors and then plumb the fuel lines.
    Posted 2003-02-04 @ 17:40 by zenilder


    Yes, it would be a PITA, but I willing to do it. Even though I'm only going NA here, I want to have the best idle possible. If the setup worked out well, I could then transfer it to, or duplicate it for, a turbo setup in another car (a project I plan to work on in a couple of years).

    Thanks.
    Posted 2003-02-04 @ 17:49 by PseduoRealityX


    Why not just use the oem GTX injectors? They are 330cc and will work fine for your application, and they drop in.
    Posted 2003-02-04 @ 17:59 by zenilder


    Yeah. That was one option I was considering, and Braden offered a set to me for $200. I might land up taking them, seeing as they'll work with the stock ECU, it's an option that will let me use the stock ECU for a longer period of time (allowing me more time to save up for the standalone rather than saying, "well, it's not going to work unless I get a standalone" and dump 1500 for one ). I still don't want to get the standalone right now, even though I know it is what I need to make the most power. I would at the least like to do with with the stock ECU somehow, resistor inline with the temp sensor or some other kind of quick mods so that I can run the engine without fear of running too lean, or too rich for that matter. It would give me time to buy the standalone.

    While I'm typing this, Jesse, what size exhaust would I benefit the most from? I know about the 2" exhaust being adequate, but with the higher compression and cams, would 2 1/4" be more fitting?

    Thanks again.
    Posted 2003-02-04 @ 20:46 by PseudoRealityX


    2.25" would be a good choice. Some companies (SMSP) have done good systems with 2.5" on ~200 crank hp 1.8L motors (Hondas), but they engineer the crap out of their systems, and even Im not sure how they accomplish their numbers.

    2.25" would be my definate choice.
    Posted 2003-02-19 @ 14:51 by bpt323


    just wondering how you can raise your redline capablilites? and where i can get ahold of stiffer springs and solid lifters along with the GTX injectors? a DOHC 4-2-1 header would be nice too!


    any help would be appreciated
    Posted 2003-02-19 @ 17:22 by zenilder


    You won't be able to do it with the stock ECUs (LX or GTX) so you will need a standalone system. I'm partial to the Wolf3D from Wolf EMS, but others here like the Haltec hardware.

    It's a matter of whether or not your engine can run at those revs. Stock, our engines will have a bit of vavle float once you reach higher revs. As Jesse mentioned, stiffer springs and solid lifters, like those offered from Toda Racing, will help reduce valve float. Fuel injectors and ingition became a hampering factor as well once you reach higher revs; however, if you use a stand alone, you've covered your ingition problem, and it's only a matter of making sure the fuel is squirted into the combustion chamber in a timely matter. Like Jesse said, we can get 8000, possibly 8500, out of our engines.
    Posted 2003-02-19 @ 23:53 by PseudoRealityX


    Beyond that, the low rod ratio of 1.54 starts to mean something, and the probability of throwing a rod through the block starts ramping up like crazy.

    FWIW, 99+ miatas used solid lifters....may be a cheaper solution than TODA lifters.
    Posted 2003-02-20 @ 13:49 by m2cupcar


    Bryan- are you sure you want to go the NA route? The return on your money spent won't be nearly as good as going with boost.

    That said- I can speak on my experience going NA with BP as I've done it. I built 2nd gen Miata BP using a stock bottom end - balance/blueprint only. I used the OE 9.5:1 pistons. Power was made through milling the block and head to produce just over 10:1 compression and modding the head with a lightweight valve train, solid lifters, cams and cam gears. Also added was a progammable ecu and high flow pump. I stuck with the stock (230cc) injectors and they were fine. On the dynojet, finely tuned (lots and lots of dyno time) the car made 142 ftlbs peak at 4250rpm and 154whp at 6500rpm. The motor was abosultey badass - and absolutely expensive (fortunately I avoided paying for everything).

    Here's a breakdown:
    custom cams and Mazdacomp EP valvetrain (spec'd by rules): $1600, cam gears $350, LINK ecu $1000, fuel pump $165, machine shop work $2000, and hours and hours of dyno tuning.

    Keep in mind that the BP motor isn't engineered as a high-power NA motor, but as sturdy motor capable of handling boost. So you're embarking on mission that's contrary to the engine's design. The 2nd gen Miata motor shows Mazda's move towards better NA performance in the BP as they added higher compression pistons, re-engineered head ports, a solid lifter valvetrain, more agressive cams and eventually variable valve timing. Your older BP doesn't have any of this and that's a deficit you'll be working against during your build-up. You'd be better off starting with the most recent iteration of the BP- but then you'd also be faced with converting it to work with a fwd car- another project in itself.

    I don't want to ruin your aspirations with this project- but I think you're going to be dissappointed with the results given the time and money it takes. And in the end if you do manage 200hp NA, it's going to be virtually undrivable on the street even with an ecu. In effect you'll have a race car motor in your street car. Whereas a boosted motor is just like stock at idle. It's not an "animal" until you're in the boost.

    rob
    Posted 2003-02-20 @ 14:03 by PseudoRealityX


    FWIW, when probing the Miata engine gurus on miata.net

    Street Prepared BP's run ~140-145whp. That's on STOCK cams, but its also running a full race header and ITBs.
    Posted 2003-02-20 @ 15:02 by m2cupcar


    The hp is believable - but without cams the torque figures will be lacking compared to going with ecu, cams and adj. gears. Without the torque, the car will feel slower and be slower. - rob
    Posted 2003-02-20 @ 15:14 by PseudoRealityX


    Torque on those motors runs from 115 to 125 peak...here's an exmple of an early first gen Miata BP lightly built SP engine....

    Flyin' Miata is the world leader in Miata performance and well-engineered, proven Miata MX5 components. We offer parts for a full range of Mazda Miata, MX5 and Eunos Roadsters vehicles.

    Bryan
    MOCC MEMBER

    -"Mean people rule."

    Originally posted by midnightblue97
    Thought the oil pump was run off the timing belt??

    Comment


      #3
      Posted 2003-02-20 @ 15:47 by m2cupcar


      The run actually looks impressive w/o any engine mods beyond stock. Here's what the head cams, gears, ecu and deck did for my BP.
      dynosheet
      Posted 2003-02-20 @ 18:05 by beachnut


      Well, it sounds like letting that Gude racing head kit go by (the one for sale on eBay) was a good decision. I think I'm going to forgo the camshaft upgrade too. Anybody want to buy some AEM adj cam gears?
      Posted 2003-02-20 @ 18:37 by PseudoRealityX


      The one i just posted had the following...

      "FM ECU, custom intake, header, exhaust
      Fred Uptagrafft's n/a 1.8 in a '90 car, with FM ECU, k&n behind headlight, RB header, supertrapp (LOUD!), stock boneyard motor, gasket matched. Very healthy! Stock 1.8 shown on chart for comparison.
      Posted 2003-02-20 @ 18:43 by zenilder


      Rob,

      Thanks for the input. I really have been torn between boosting it or building it up.

      I just don't want to deal with all the turbo mojo right now, which is mainly due to lack of finances and time (to plumb all the IC tubes and related mess).

      Plus, doing a NA is something I've been wanting to do. From your figures, yeah, I prolly won't hit 200hp nor would I like how it would run if I were to attain those numbers. ~150hp at the flywheel will satisfy me quite well.

      As of now, I'm still waiting on the engine because my mechanic has a number of jobs on his plate; however, he has replaced the rod/main/head bolts with ARP hardware, the block has been cleaned and bored to take the 2001 10:1 comp pistons, and he'll be modifying the stock cam gears to be eccentric. I am on a bit of a time crunch so I told him to just check out the cams and see if I can gain anything from the "15 hp" cams I have over the stock ones. I may ask him to look into the cams a bit more and see if a regrind of the stock ones will present a greater advantage over the "15 hp" ones. Oh.. We also agreed that the oil pan could use some baffles so that will happen, too. I wanted him to take a look at the head to do a bit of fine-tuning work/grinding, but that will take more time. dunno... I might stick with that route depending on how things work out (mainly time). The head is ported and polished nicely so I'm sure there would be less restriction as compared to the stock head.

      I would like to eventually do a turbo BP or even a overdone B6 like Cam put in his Festiva (wicked engine). Not sure if I would move the NA over to another car and drop the turbo into the Pro, or I would just drop the turbo into a '91 Escort LX Wagon *evilgrin* :D :wee:

      Either way, I just want to do the work to gain the experience.
      Posted 2003-02-20 @ 23:40 by thunderb0lt


      Hehe.... u familiar with the story of the fox who finally consoled himself by saying.... "ahhhh f**k it... those grapes are probably sore anyway"?

      Send me a PM with info on the Cam gears. Pics would help too.
      Thanks
      Posted 2003-02-21 @ 07:04 by beachnut


      I dunno yet thunderbolt, I'm having some second thoughts

      Question for all: Should I really get rid of these cam gears? I've given up on any NA buildup like Zenilder is doing. I will go turbo at some point, either bpt or bolt-on, but that will be a while b/c of financial reasons. Until then I haven't totally given up on getting some Corksport cams (Todas are out of my price range). They seem easy enough to install and I would think I'd a least get *some* gain, esp with my intake and possibly a header. SO, my engine performance mods would look something like this:

      - my existing PRM intake & RX-7 VAF, plus new mazdaspeedwest custom intake piping

      - my existing Borla muffler, plus new Genie header, free flow cat, resonator, 2" mandrel pipe all the way

      - my existing AEM adj camgears (though not installed), new Corksport camshafts, and time on the dyno tuning it right

      That would be it for my engine/drivetrain mods. After that I can work on the suspension stuff and brakes. What do you think? Will that plan probably get me as much as I can get out of the car without going turbo?
      Posted 2003-02-21 @ 07:19 by m2cupcar


      It's not so much the cams, the gears, the ecu, the built bottom end and head... it's the high compression pistons or extensive milling to build compression that will leave you stuck with a NA build up. If a NA BP build were to stick with 9:1 compression it'd still make good power (see the chart Jesse posted) and there'd be an excellent foundation for boost in the future. Nearly everything that goes into building a strong NA motor will pay dividends once boost is added. But I gotta say that you need to weigh the expense of the NA parts against a boosted setup and the return vs. $. I'd say that the primary reason for going with a high power NA setup is because the "rules" require you to, or for the desire to have a screaming four banger. My point was that a _high-power_ normally aspirated setup will produce less power and be less "driveable" than the similar funds spent on a boosted setup. - rob
      Bryan
      MOCC MEMBER

      -"Mean people rule."

      Originally posted by midnightblue97
      Thought the oil pump was run off the timing belt??

      Comment


        #4
        Update

        Okay. As it stands, my mechanic has to do a bit of work to the head and bottom end still (not to say he's done some and found out more needs to be done. it's more that he has more on his plate than he can eat ).

        I've bought and received my standalone from WolfEMS.

        I bought the solid lifters for the head so the machanic can machine some custom shims. However, I found out on solomiata.com that I can buy valve stem caps to raise the lifters, thus reducing the valvetrain weight. I'm going to be giving the machanic the necessary info so he can buy them and install them.

        Because I have the standalone, I can have an open exhaust (no MAF or VAF) because the standalone has an internal map sensor that I can use.

        I have an old CS header that I bought off GroHarlem for $50. I'll be gasket matching that thing and then checking/fixing the welds myself before installation. I'll also be buying some exhaust wrap from here. I'll put it on the header as well as the intake pipe. I might buy the starter protector from the same site along some other misc stuff.

        I plan to either buy or fab some phenolic gaskets/spacers. http://nextgear.home.comcast.net/

        I'll be installing a 2nd Gen intake manifold.

        I'll also be installing an oil filter relocator and oil cooler, too. http://www.alamomotorsports.com/pmc/Contents.html

        I haven't checked with my mechanic for quite a bit. The new school semester had started, so I really didn't have time to put the rest of the engine together or even install it if he -had- finished it when I needed it. I'll taking some printouts from the Protege Shop Manual for his reference and take the information off of solomiata.com also.

        Hopefully he'll finish it within a month or two after I give him the info.

        The time frame works out for me. I have a number of things to finish, including wiring up the Pro for the standalone.

        I'll post here again or start a new thread once I've installed everything.


        Later on.

        -Bryan
        Bryan
        MOCC MEMBER

        -"Mean people rule."

        Originally posted by midnightblue97
        Thought the oil pump was run off the timing belt??

        Comment


          #5
          Awesome! Thanks for moving the thread. It's got some very good info that many might find helpful in the future. Make sure you keep us posted on how the project evolves!
          -------------------------
          '91 LX
          '03 Mazdaspeed Protege #235
          -------------------------

          Originally posted by pigeon
          well if you're a fan of inaccuracy and uncertainty.... then by all means, go set your timing by feel and sound

          while you're out there, you might as well adjust your air/fuel ratio by smell... and your tire pressure by ride height

          Comment

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