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    hypothetical WRC potential?

    Figured I would throw this out there:

    If Mazda had there **** together with engineering a transmission that wasn't made out of glass, do you think the Mazda WRC team could of chalked up some more wins OR were there more problems with the BF/BG AWD chassis cars that were just plagued with bad luck.

    And that can go for any aspect of the cars (Engine/Trans/Chassis/Suspension/ETC.)

    Discuss.
    1988 323 GTX 5 speed
    MODS: It's my garage art

    1990 Miata 5 speed
    MODS: Awaiting on GM goodness...

    1990 Protege 4wd 5 speed
    MODS: BPT/AWD swap, JSPEED Coilovers, MS3PRO

    2000 Miata 5 speed
    Stock with Bilstein Suspension Package
    Chillin in the backyard with a rod knock

    #2
    The cars were great and the factory wrc cars didn't use Mazda trannys anyways(X-tracs), so that wasn't a problem. The main reason was that with the end of group B class overall interest in rally was droping and Mazda didn't want to invest more $$$ in a very expensive sport that wasn't getting them what they really wanted(sales)
    "See that car, in the 80's that car was deadly." Random man to his son while passing the GTX in a parking lot

    Originally posted by neuspeedescort
    the proper spelling would be "Launchabilitiness" i do believe.
    -88' Mazda 323 GTX, 1.8t, Modified Magazine May 2012
    -88' Mazda 323 GTX, caged and ready for dirt
    -93' Mazda Miata, half caged
    -09' Mercedes C63 AMG
    -87' Toyota Land Cruiser, 33's with slight lift, safari style!

    Comment


      #3
      Okay, I completely phrased this wrong:

      Maybe the question should be then if the awd tranny's were built better, do you think Mazda would of kept going with that option in their later model cars or did the price of these vehicles kill off something that was before its time, and/or do you think motorsports in general could of swayed the answer in either direction.

      And I'm talking globally, not just US.
      1988 323 GTX 5 speed
      MODS: It's my garage art

      1990 Miata 5 speed
      MODS: Awaiting on GM goodness...

      1990 Protege 4wd 5 speed
      MODS: BPT/AWD swap, JSPEED Coilovers, MS3PRO

      2000 Miata 5 speed
      Stock with Bilstein Suspension Package
      Chillin in the backyard with a rod knock

      Comment


        #4
        Nah. I see what you're getting at but you're going after not quite the right cause and effect. Trailrider pretty much nailed it but I'll nail it more, with much windbagginess.
        None of the WRC cars used factory gearboxes. They all went aftermarket, xtrac or similar. So the gearbox thing is a nonissue then or now really. Main reason mazda didn't do well in wrc when they competed was that they were down on displacement, and power, to the other cars. With class weight minimums, it didn't matter if their car handled better if it couldn't torque its way outta the corners. It does rather beg the question as to why the hell they didn't put a 2.5l in the homologation cars so they could go to town, and if they had, you can speculate that that item would have forced them to design a decent gearbox for those homologation cars, and we'd all be very happy. My guess is they looked at the developement costs, and their then-current sales figures, and folded their hand. I say they lacked vision. They could have sold the awd protege with the BPT drivetrain in it here, like they did in the rest of the world, instead of that boringass singlecam 100hp slug they stuck it with here, and started the angry 4door sedan wars way ahead of sooby and dsm, and made a *killing* but they didn't. They figured that the US market for hot sedans was too small, but they totally underestimated the number of gearheads such as myself that have families but refuse to grow the hell up and stop playing with cars, or that otherwise see the utility of having 4 doors. Obviously I ain't alone, as there are a helluva lotta sti and evo here. Bueler? Beuler? Mazda? Mazda?
        It is fun to contemplate the idea of the '90 awd protege being their version of an evoI, then the bpt familia the rest of the world got as being the mazda evoII, then a GTR version evoIII, then who knows whatall next such that in this alternate reality in the current day, Mazda would have something in the showrooms that'd be direct buttkicking competition to the evoX and STI...and the skyline gtr..
        They lost their nerve, forgetting that they have more motorsports heritage than any car company this side of Porsche and Ferrari, and thus they screwed the pooch. They have the engineering talent, but they didn't use it. Their best excuse is (and it's a pretty damn good one really), that they already had 2 fullon sportscars in their lineup to concentrate on and the Miata was so full of win they didn't *need* to start, or even participate in, the angry 4door sedan wars.


        But I bet we all wish they had!!
        Last edited by jay; 03-18-2009, 11:36 AM.
        '90 AWD Protege, full GTR drivetrain swap, ~320 whp daily driver, RIP, and
        '90 AWD Protege, yet another GTR swap, Open class rallycar with a Toyota GT4 gearbox swap, thus crossing the line between hobby and mental illness. And a Brabus E55 K8, removing all doubt.
        http://www.wihandyman.com/forum/vbpi...?do=view&g=110
        http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2599486

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by xtg323adzam View Post
          Okay, I completely phrased this wrong:

          Maybe the question should be then if the awd tranny's were built better, do you think Mazda would of kept going with that option in their later model cars or did the price of these vehicles kill off something that was before its time, and/or do you think motorsports in general could of swayed the answer in either direction.

          And I'm talking globally, not just US.
          all the B generation cars got AWD... just not here

          jay nailed it
          "Discontent is the first necessity of progress."
          -Thomas A. Edison

          "There is a fine line between ballin' on a budget, and dreamin' on an empty wallet."


          *Junked* 92 mx3, BP swap- milage whore, beaten up and down the east coast
          *Junked* KLZE powered 323 on Megasquirt 1
          172.60HP & 156.93 TQ with only headers and short ram intake. back under the knife for a BPT swap.
          New Daily stock 1.6L 1999 Mazda Protege LX

          Comment


            #6
            Mazda would have something in the showrooms that'd be direct buttkicking competition to the evoX and STI...and the skyline gtr..
            And it's sad to think about what the Mazdaspeed6 could of been.

            That right there could of been such an awesome car, but no, they had to use tank technology on it, and almost the price...
            Last edited by xtg323adzam; 03-18-2009, 12:24 PM.
            1988 323 GTX 5 speed
            MODS: It's my garage art

            1990 Miata 5 speed
            MODS: Awaiting on GM goodness...

            1990 Protege 4wd 5 speed
            MODS: BPT/AWD swap, JSPEED Coilovers, MS3PRO

            2000 Miata 5 speed
            Stock with Bilstein Suspension Package
            Chillin in the backyard with a rod knock

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by jay View Post
              It is fun to contemplate the idea of the '90 awd protege being their version of an evoI, then the bpt familia the rest of the world got as being the mazda evoII, then a GTR version evoIII, then who knows whatall next such that in this alternate reality in the current day, Mazda would have something in the showrooms that'd be direct buttkicking competition to the evoX and STI...and the skyline gtr..
              i just creamed myself
              1992 Ultra Blue Metallic EGT - The 'scort with no name - crap>reliable daily>rallycross prep>stage rally
              Featured in Rally Gearbox Magazine 3/1/11
              "There's a hierarchy of insanity in motor sports. Normal people think all racers are crazy. Folks who race sedans think people in open-wheel cars are nuts. People who race cars of any kind think motorcycle racers are absolutely off theirs meds. But there's one group that everyone agrees is made up of the most extreme, the most daring, and absolutely craziest people in racing - rally racers."

              Comment


                #8
                Think of this: Mazda woulda kept the weight DOWN. That is all.
                '90 AWD Protege, full GTR drivetrain swap, ~320 whp daily driver, RIP, and
                '90 AWD Protege, yet another GTR swap, Open class rallycar with a Toyota GT4 gearbox swap, thus crossing the line between hobby and mental illness. And a Brabus E55 K8, removing all doubt.
                http://www.wihandyman.com/forum/vbpi...?do=view&g=110
                http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2599486

                Comment


                  #9
                  Since we are on the topic, why is the mazdaspeed6 so freakin' heavy? I think its right around 3900-4000lbs....
                  1988 323 GTX 5 speed
                  MODS: It's my garage art

                  1990 Miata 5 speed
                  MODS: Awaiting on GM goodness...

                  1990 Protege 4wd 5 speed
                  MODS: BPT/AWD swap, JSPEED Coilovers, MS3PRO

                  2000 Miata 5 speed
                  Stock with Bilstein Suspension Package
                  Chillin in the backyard with a rod knock

                  Comment


                    #10
                    An emphasis on creature comforts? I really don't know. I look at the weights of some modern cars and wonder if they're filling the framerails with lead or something...
                    '90 AWD Protege, full GTR drivetrain swap, ~320 whp daily driver, RIP, and
                    '90 AWD Protege, yet another GTR swap, Open class rallycar with a Toyota GT4 gearbox swap, thus crossing the line between hobby and mental illness. And a Brabus E55 K8, removing all doubt.
                    http://www.wihandyman.com/forum/vbpi...?do=view&g=110
                    http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2599486

                    Comment


                      #11
                      I tend to believe its DOT and their anal ways of safety, but this is coming from a miata driver..

                      What I would give for a 2400-2500lb awd car...oh wait
                      1988 323 GTX 5 speed
                      MODS: It's my garage art

                      1990 Miata 5 speed
                      MODS: Awaiting on GM goodness...

                      1990 Protege 4wd 5 speed
                      MODS: BPT/AWD swap, JSPEED Coilovers, MS3PRO

                      2000 Miata 5 speed
                      Stock with Bilstein Suspension Package
                      Chillin in the backyard with a rod knock

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by jay View Post
                        They figured that the US market for hot sedans was too small, but they totally underestimated the number of gearheads such as myself that have families but refuse to grow the hell up and stop playing with cars, or that otherwise see the utility of having 4 doors. Obviously I ain't alone, as there are a helluva lotta sti and evo here. Bueler? Beuler? Mazda? Mazda?
                        Thanks for the new sig quote.
                        1993 Protege LX-Midnight's shadow SOLD
                        1996 Honda CBR600-Wrecked. Damn Honda crippled me
                        2002 mazda MPV-family truckster SOLD
                        2010 VW routon

                        Originally posted by jay
                        .....they totally underestimated the number of gearheads such as myself that have families but refuse to grow the hell up and stop playing with cars, or that otherwise see the utility of having 4 doors. Obviously I ain't alone, as there are a helluva lotta sti and evo here. Bueler? Beuler? Mazda? Mazda?

                        Comment


                          #13
                          My bias'd opinion, they dropped the ball when they could have brought us the TX-3 Laser in the Escort line too. Mazda/Ford could have had a good share of the current hot-compact market, maybe even have sold the Laser as a 2 door Protege GT-R. (better aero than the 323 hatch back)

                          -Jon R.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            i definitly agree there^^^, ford/mazda definitly could have made a killing by bringing the AWD laser to north america, look at how many 2nd gen escorts were sold, imagine how many more couldve been sold in AWD, even if they wernt turbo
                            "See that car, in the 80's that car was deadly." Random man to his son while passing the GTX in a parking lot

                            Originally posted by neuspeedescort
                            the proper spelling would be "Launchabilitiness" i do believe.
                            -88' Mazda 323 GTX, 1.8t, Modified Magazine May 2012
                            -88' Mazda 323 GTX, caged and ready for dirt
                            -93' Mazda Miata, half caged
                            -09' Mercedes C63 AMG
                            -87' Toyota Land Cruiser, 33's with slight lift, safari style!

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Here's some more "what ifs/what you think" to stir up the pot:

                              Main reason mazda didn't do well in wrc when they competed was that they were down on displacement, and power, to the other cars. With class weight minimums, it didn't matter if their car handled better if it couldn't torque its way outta the corners. It does rather beg the question as to why the hell they didn't put a 2.5l in the homologation cars so they could go to town, and if they had, you can speculate that that item would have forced them to design a decent gearbox for those homologation cars, and we'd all be very happy.
                              Could it be argued that with the knowledge gained (technically failures) with the Mazda Factory Rally team, Cosworth/Ford picked up the ball and made a much better run with escort or was it just the awesome uber-ness that is and forever will be Cosworth?
                              1988 323 GTX 5 speed
                              MODS: It's my garage art

                              1990 Miata 5 speed
                              MODS: Awaiting on GM goodness...

                              1990 Protege 4wd 5 speed
                              MODS: BPT/AWD swap, JSPEED Coilovers, MS3PRO

                              2000 Miata 5 speed
                              Stock with Bilstein Suspension Package
                              Chillin in the backyard with a rod knock

                              Comment

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