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    Direct Injection

    I didn't really know where to post this but since the tuning part of it will be a huge PITA I figured engine management would be a good choice.

    Has anyone dabbled in direct injection? Or better yet, is anyone interested in converting a BP to direct injection?

    A friend of mine is very interested in direct injection and I have always been interested in doing something different. The I see the biggest problem being the injectors. Specifically, where to put them. I haven't taken a good look at the cylinder head but I'm guessing that with 4 valves/cylinder there isn't exactly a lot of space. As far as the injectors themselves, cannibalizing a VW motor will probably be the easiest thing to do.

    Anyway, if you're also interested, let me know. If you want to know more about direct injection, post, and I'll explain what I know about it. One thing I should point out, this may be prohibitively expensive. It may take us a grand or two just to figure out what we're doing then more to actually implement it. Not like you guys have to pay for it or anything, I'm just saying that there's a reason why this isn't common.

    Thoughts? please share them.

    Paul
    Loose nut behind the wheel...

    #2
    i dont think it would really be possible without some major machining equipment. if even then.
    ~PaTricK~


    -Current car's-
    ~ 92 Probe GT Turbo, 90 FE3 Turbo 626GT hatch, 97 KL mtx 626, 05 Mazda6, 09 Kia Sportage V6~
    What are you driving?

    Comment


      #3
      That is the beauty of knowing the right people. You can flame spray to fill in areas and you can machine to take away material. Raw castings might be useful but with how common these motors are trying to devise something that starts with a production head would be the best implementation.

      Anyway, I know that it will take a lot of work but I was curious if there were any people that were interested in applying the technology.
      Loose nut behind the wheel...

      Comment


        #4
        what are teh advantages of direct injection anyways?
        I mean I guess I could go on wikipedia and look...

        Ok, nevermind I looked, so how much additional power would we be talking about, say on a realtively stock GTX setup, or just a stock BP?

        Thanks,

        Nick
        Last edited by jumpncrash; 02-07-2010, 10:34 PM.
        Posted By: Wheresthericego

        The BP crank is made out of invincible.
        sigpic

        Comment


          #5
          One of the advantages of DI is that you don't really have to worry about pre-ignition because there isn't any fuel in the cylinder until the last minute. My mom has a Passat with the 3.6 FSI (fuel stratified ignition, I don't know why VW Group comes up with these stupid names) It makes 300 hp, runs on 87, and has a 12:1 compression ratio. I had it doing 120 without batting an eye.

          Basically, you can run super high compression ratios (or boost but I'd rather run NA on my race car) on low octane fuel without worrying about pre-ignition or detonation. If you ask me, it's the wave of the future for gasoline engines. All around, you can make a motor more efficient with direct injection because you can increase the effective pressure without a need for fancy fuel.

          You can also smooth out your intake path. With regular port injection, if you have smooth intake runners the fuel will stick to the walls of the intake so they need to be a little rough to keep the boundry layer turbulent and keep the fuel mixed with the air.
          Last edited by ajax; 02-07-2010, 10:44 PM. Reason: turbulent flow
          Loose nut behind the wheel...

          Comment


            #6
            Sacrifice a head, or find someone that has done so already, and see if there's a waterjacket or something else important in the way. My guess is, you'd fill in the current injector holes, drill new ones from the same outside start point, and see if you can tunnel form there to the chamber.

            Or maybe straight down through the top of the head next to the plug wells and see if the hardware fits 'tween the cams?
            '90 AWD Protege, full GTR drivetrain swap, ~320 whp daily driver, RIP, and
            '90 AWD Protege, yet another GTR swap, Open class rallycar with a Toyota GT4 gearbox swap, thus crossing the line between hobby and mental illness. And a Brabus E55 K8, removing all doubt.
            http://www.wihandyman.com/forum/vbpi...?do=view&g=110
            http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2599486

            Comment


              #7
              The Mazdaspeed3 uses a DISI (Direct Injection Spark Ignition) turbo engine.

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              Comment


                #8
                Owning a MS3 with DISI, I have become very familiar with the technology.

                There are some issues to overcome in order to apply the technology successfully.

                1. High pressure injection system (pump, injector, lines)
                2. Advanced control system including high voltage driver for the injectors (around 100V)
                3. Appropriate piston design and combustion chamber design to ensure proper tumble, swirl, mixing.

                By the time you've considered this, you might as well swap over an entire DI motor into the car if this is your goal.

                DI also comes with its own set of issues:
                - Very heavy carbon buildup on valves and intake components that can be damaging
                - Poor mixing of fuel and oil dilution
                - While the knock threshold is higher, it is nowhere near what you'd expect. My MS3 is very happy to knock at 18+psi with just 9.5 compression.

                Overall interesting technology but not yet mature for gasoline engines. As stated, I would purchase a car with the technology before attempting to modify a BP for it. The BP just doesn't have the design, sensors, and actuators for what is needed.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Porsche's setup looks like the real deal, they're getting enornous power from 3.6l and better mileage than an Accord, but yeah I spect we're a long ways from DIY DI.
                  '90 AWD Protege, full GTR drivetrain swap, ~320 whp daily driver, RIP, and
                  '90 AWD Protege, yet another GTR swap, Open class rallycar with a Toyota GT4 gearbox swap, thus crossing the line between hobby and mental illness. And a Brabus E55 K8, removing all doubt.
                  http://www.wihandyman.com/forum/vbpi...?do=view&g=110
                  http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2599486

                  Comment


                    #10
                    I have DI on my rotary 323
                    I live my life a quarter pounder at a time. And for those 500 calories or more, I'm free. I need FRIES! Two of them. The big ones. Oh, and I need them tonight. You're lucky the double shot of BBQ sauce didn't blow the seam on your nugget box. There she is, 2 pounds of pure beef. My dad ate it in 9.0 seconds flat. Check it out, it's like this. If I lose, winner takes my happy meal. But if I win, I take the burger and the toy. To some people, that's more important.

                    ._________________________
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                    |.....Japan Parts.................| |'|";,___.
                    |_..._...____________======||_|_|...,]
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                    Oh and by the way that shot in your banner with Vin Diesel's car getting shot, thats a civic not an altezza.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Chrysler has a direct injected v6 coming soon, and Government Motors is making 300 and change in theirs. alot more power, with lower emissions, and better fuel economy are some of the positives.
                      There are no stupid questions, just stupid people.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Have you seen a DI injector out of the car, it looks like a late model diesel injector.

                        Hardest part is the provisions for installing and mounting it, i think youll come unstuck there. And thats the first thing you need to overcome.

                        Other than that, a good aftermarket ecu with injector delay and advance, 8 injector outputs (you could fire on the top of the intake, and then down the power stroke under boost)

                        Fuel pumps you could run mechanically via a gilmer belt.

                        All of those things can be overcome with enough money, physically possible is the big ?

                        Comment


                          #13
                          sourcing a fuel pump to run it would be expensive also since there not a typical one either since there so high pressure. that would also mean all new lines for that. would be really cool to see someone do it though. a friend converted his air cooled honda odyssey to a liquid cooled head. something i had never seen done.
                          ~PaTricK~


                          -Current car's-
                          ~ 92 Probe GT Turbo, 90 FE3 Turbo 626GT hatch, 97 KL mtx 626, 05 Mazda6, 09 Kia Sportage V6~
                          What are you driving?

                          Comment


                            #14
                            So far, Lex has the most compelling argument against. A lift pump would definitely be an expensive component unless you could find one cheap at a junkyard. When the core charge is over $400, you know you have an expensive part. Another issue that I just thought of, you couldn't use a diesel lift pump because diesel is more lubricating than gasoline and I would be willing to bet that this is accounted for in the design of the pump.

                            Anyway, I was wondering if anyone was interested in the application. A few people are but it's obvious that this would be no simple task. One of the main reasons I'm interested is because it's kind of out there.
                            Loose nut behind the wheel...

                            Comment


                              #15
                              It is indeed very interesting ... however the return on investment would be negative because the amount of work to get it to work properly is outside the real of most privateers. And why do so when designs are already out there - might as well swap on in.

                              For injection control, you would need a 60-2 toothed wheel on the crank and a very precise controller.

                              For inserting and retaining the injector itself, you would need high pressure seals and a retaining mechanism that is not threaded into the head (because threading injectors into the head will distort the small orifices in the injectors and spray pattern will be disturbed.) Remember that the injectors must seal against combustion chamber pressure.

                              I can go through many more considerations. The technology is good, it's just not feasible to IMPLEMENTED on an engine that was not designed for it.

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