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    My Head Hurts

    Water on the #2 piston, a discolored head bolt. The head doesn't appear to be warped. Does all that discoloration on the cylinder deck indicate head gasket leakage?

    Also, that is damage you see at the top of the first pics. Predetonation? Impact damage?

    And yes, there is water in the oil as well. This cylinder has been going south for a while as indicated by low compression readings.
    Attached Files
    Last edited by 1st Gen; 03-31-2015, 12:24 AM.
    1991 Protege LX with GTX swap, DD
    1990 4WD Protege with GTX swap, Project/garage decoration
    2006 Mazda 3 with 2.3, Her car
    1980 Ford F100 Short bed with 300ci 6 cylinder, work truck/home for moss

    #2
    This thread started out as a "WTF is this" and has now turned into a "watch me go"! There's been a lot of comment which I'm thankful for but it does kind of muddy the water when it comes to trying to follow what I'm doing. The plan is to leave this as the comment thread and link back to this post the different stages of the rebuild. Anything relevant that comes up, I'll link back to here. I've never done this level of repair before so when I come to something that I think needs research and comment, I'll flag it.

    The car is a 1991 Protege LX with a GTX engine package swap. That's the engine, VAF, SMIC, ECU, and a RHD harness that I added two feet to fit the USDM chassis.
    I've driven it reliably for over 60 thousand miles, but now it's broken as you can see from the pictures above.
    The plan is the bore the block .0020 over, put in 9.5:1 compression pistons, have the head shaved .0020, upgrade head bolts with studs, fresh three angle valve grind, check the head for obvious signs of air flow restriction, maybe replace valve seats, then reassemble with as much care and attention to detail as I can muster. If there's anything you want to see, I'll take special care to try and make it happen.

    http://mechdb.com/index.php?title=Ma..._advance&oldid , this is a wiki for how to time the engine by standard means.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsMV...2rEfxzH-123TVG , A very fast tutorial on a piston install
    http://www.rexresearch.com/singh/singh.htm , did I read this whole thing? lol, Somender SINGH, Interesting Ryan, I may try it.
    http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/rafr...&parttype=5620 , The pistons (I think)

    http://www.wihandyman.com/forum/show...l=1#post810664 , Next round of pics and comment
    Attached Files
    Last edited by 1st Gen; 04-07-2015, 03:35 AM.
    1991 Protege LX with GTX swap, DD
    1990 4WD Protege with GTX swap, Project/garage decoration
    2006 Mazda 3 with 2.3, Her car
    1980 Ford F100 Short bed with 300ci 6 cylinder, work truck/home for moss

    Comment


      #3
      thats damage alright. do me a favor & spray off that cylinder with carb cleaner. id like to see a few clean shots of that. & the piston at TDC cleaned too would be helpful.

      do you need another head???
      ---Has ClubProtege helped you in someway? show your support by Contributing--- Click Here---

      1992- project FE3..... 313 WHP @ 9.3psi




      I pet my dash when I get into the car..."good car"
      he actually has a mazda tree, parts grow on it

      Comment


        #4
        I wanna see #2 sparkplug as well. Damge looks like detonation but I suppose something coulda gotten in there and rattled around a bit.
        '90 AWD Protege, full GTR drivetrain swap, ~320 whp daily driver, RIP, and
        '90 AWD Protege, yet another GTR swap, Open class rallycar with a Toyota GT4 gearbox swap, thus crossing the line between hobby and mental illness. And a Brabus E55 K8, removing all doubt.
        http://www.wihandyman.com/forum/vbpi...?do=view&g=110
        http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2599486

        Comment


          #5
          Ryan-I don't know if I need a new head yet. There's just so much damage.
          Jay- I was at O'Reilly's the other day and some guy noticed the 4wd Protege. He was like, "there's a guy in (some town in Washington) who races those. I think his name is Jay". Reputation points.
          Pics.
          Attached Files
          1991 Protege LX with GTX swap, DD
          1990 4WD Protege with GTX swap, Project/garage decoration
          2006 Mazda 3 with 2.3, Her car
          1980 Ford F100 Short bed with 300ci 6 cylinder, work truck/home for moss

          Comment


            #6
            Lulllzzz!
            '90 AWD Protege, full GTR drivetrain swap, ~320 whp daily driver, RIP, and
            '90 AWD Protege, yet another GTR swap, Open class rallycar with a Toyota GT4 gearbox swap, thus crossing the line between hobby and mental illness. And a Brabus E55 K8, removing all doubt.
            http://www.wihandyman.com/forum/vbpi...?do=view&g=110
            http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2599486

            Comment


              #7
              I called around and found a few BP's ranging in price from $325-$750. I also called the machine shop and found that having the block bored really isn't that expensive. I'll take the head down there in the next couple of days and see what kind of advice he can give me. Is the damage to the head more than can be fixed? I also see rebuilt BP heads on the web for $300 ish.

              I know, I know, I should upgrade to a BP 05 head because they flow more air, but don't those restrictions make for better low end torque? That's most of my driving.

              My plan as it stands,
              have block bored 20 over
              find some reasonably priced pistons 9:1 compression, (if advised, I might go 9.5:1, but I don't want to buy more trouble, this rebuild needs to work and be reliable) Some leads on middle of the road pistons would be extremely helpful.
              If Mike at machine shop can fix head without affecting the combustion chamber too much, do that.
              Otherwise, source BP head,
              a 3 angle valve grind is $249 if I have him do all the wrench turning.

              It helps that the turbo seems to be in great shape. I can't guess what went through this engine.
              1991 Protege LX with GTX swap, DD
              1990 4WD Protege with GTX swap, Project/garage decoration
              2006 Mazda 3 with 2.3, Her car
              1980 Ford F100 Short bed with 300ci 6 cylinder, work truck/home for moss

              Comment


                #8
                15°/45°/75° works best for these heads. (well maybe not "best" but according to the really really OLD school rally folk, "as damn good as it gets" ) I can attest to those angles being magical

                depending on how deep the detonation is really is where the key factor lies.
                Yes keeping the GTX head will be better for you.
                What was your timing at?
                what ecu again?
                you may consider checking or cleaning your injectors(if not upgrading to new age ones) - its very unusual to see detonation signs in the middle 2 cylinders with the BP.
                feel free to give me a call jon we can chat some more.
                ---Has ClubProtege helped you in someway? show your support by Contributing--- Click Here---

                1992- project FE3..... 313 WHP @ 9.3psi




                I pet my dash when I get into the car..."good car"
                he actually has a mazda tree, parts grow on it

                Comment


                  #9
                  please try to get some 9.5:1 pistons........
                  ---Has ClubProtege helped you in someway? show your support by Contributing--- Click Here---

                  1992- project FE3..... 313 WHP @ 9.3psi




                  I pet my dash when I get into the car..."good car"
                  he actually has a mazda tree, parts grow on it

                  Comment


                    #10
                    The timing is the same as it was when I bought the car. I never changed it
                    It's a stock GTX engine, ecu, harness, SMIC, VAF
                    Mike at the machine shop seemed to think that something went through the engine

                    My plan as of this moment,
                    Completely disassemble the head and block and take them down to the machine shop.
                    15/45/75 three angle valve grind,
                    inspect valve guides
                    Shave . 0010 off the head to fix damage
                    Have block bored .0020 over to remove scratches

                    Source 9:1, cast, turbo pistons
                    replace
                    rod bearings,
                    main bearings,
                    gaskets,
                    rear main seal,
                    timing belt and idlers,
                    possibly oil pump,
                    head bolts,
                    there are probably some rubber gremlins I'll need to replace when I get the valve assembly apart too, never done that.
                    Source valve compressor


                    I decided on the 9:1 pistons only because I can't afford forged pistons and rods. Also, I'm not sure how aggressive I can get with the stock GTX ECU. I hear ya Ryan, I really do, but I don't know where that line is so I'm being cautious. I'd be happy to if it turned out that I was well within the tolerance.

                    I'm going to disassemble the turbo and make sure there's no damage. I have a spare that's in great shape if needed. I may also port the head, not sure yet. My air compressor trips the circuit breaker on the house so 15 hours of grinding would be intolerable.

                    Am also going to have the pin hole in the radiator fixed and relocate the overflow bottle. It might sounds stupid but this has caused me more problems.

                    Upgrade at least 2 motor mounts to AWR solid duro.

                    Might also look into having the hot side, down pipe, ceramic coated. I have thermal tape for the exhaust down to the flex pipe. It just depends on how much I have left.

                    done, I gotta go
                    1991 Protege LX with GTX swap, DD
                    1990 4WD Protege with GTX swap, Project/garage decoration
                    2006 Mazda 3 with 2.3, Her car
                    1980 Ford F100 Short bed with 300ci 6 cylinder, work truck/home for moss

                    Comment


                      #11
                      has anyone ever dynoed the two heads to see if there's an actual difference, or is it just one of those things where someone said it once and it's been repeated so many times that everyone just takes it as being fact now? I'm mostly curious because I can't see that much of a difference, especially with a turbo that has a maybe 1700rpm window where it's outside boost threshold (also, I hope this doesn't come off as trolling, I am legit curious about this)

                      definitely with you on compression vs the GTX computer, I'm not sure where the limit is but I've seen a few stock BPs with melted pistons with a GTX ECU
                      sigpic

                      03 Accord DX: K24/5MT, peasant-spec old man's car
                      92 240SX: KA/T25, nerd mobile

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Please reconsider---- get some miata 9.5:1 pistons. keep the stock rods(save the expense) - invest in +1 valves if you can afford the extra(its well worth it)- especially since your getting a valve job anyway.

                        on the stock gtx ecu you can safely run 12° timing all day long --- 10° is stock [I used to run 14°]

                        PS what octane do you run??

                        All things considered because the damage to the head did not break the combustion seal you'll be fine even if the quench zone isn't "perfect" my FS motor in my p5 was equal if not worse (& im still using the same pistons- far from ideal) but i'll be damned if it doesn't work just fine.


                        additional points to consider:
                        you can safely shave up to 20 thou off the BP head with no noticeable negative effects & still remain NON-INTERFERENCE.
                        Add somender grooves to your head- personal experience shows me the **** works.
                        I only suggest ALTROM® brand seals (you can get them from napa stores) i will not run anything but. (cam seals that don't leak even installed on 300k worn in cams - kind of quality)
                        get altrom for the cam seals & front/rear mains


                        If you want me to work over the head im more then willing to help you out.
                        I can disassemble & reassemble the valvetrain (already have the tool)
                        I do have a few options for machine shops around also.

                        the BP motor really comes alive when you give it compression. until then IMHO its a poochy miniature truck motor


                        im more than willing to help & you have my phone number.
                        ---Has ClubProtege helped you in someway? show your support by Contributing--- Click Here---

                        1992- project FE3..... 313 WHP @ 9.3psi




                        I pet my dash when I get into the car..."good car"
                        he actually has a mazda tree, parts grow on it

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by atomicEGT View Post
                          has anyone ever dynoed the two heads to see if there's an actual difference, or is it just one of those things where someone said it once and it's been repeated so many times that everyone just takes it as being fact now? I'm mostly curious because I can't see that much of a difference, especially with a turbo that has a maybe 1700rpm window where it's outside boost threshold (also, I hope this doesn't come off as trolling, I am legit curious about this)

                          definitely with you on compression vs the GTX computer, I'm not sure where the limit is but I've seen a few stock BPs with melted pistons with a GTX ECU


                          Jon & several overseas folks did both flow comparisons & some dyno work between the 2 heads. ancient info which seems impossible to find these days.

                          but until you near the 300whp mark you aren't gaining anything by using a NA BP head (BP4W/VVT heads excluded- per obvious reasoning)

                          gtx head + NA intake manifold = best of both worlds.
                          ---Has ClubProtege helped you in someway? show your support by Contributing--- Click Here---

                          1992- project FE3..... 313 WHP @ 9.3psi




                          I pet my dash when I get into the car..."good car"
                          he actually has a mazda tree, parts grow on it

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by FE3-323 View Post
                            Jon & several overseas folks did both flow comparisons & some dyno work between the 2 heads. ancient info which seems impossible to find these days.

                            but until you near the 300whp mark you aren't gaining anything by using a NA BP head (BP4W/VVT heads excluded- per obvious reasoning)

                            gtx head + NA intake manifold = best of both worlds.
                            huh, was it a significant difference, or something in the 10 ft-lb range? I mean, logically I can see there being a difference, it's just that off-boost my GT and wagon feel exactly like any other BP-powered car I've ever driven and it makes me wonder if it's worth the effort, that's all. or is it more like those intake port restrictions make up for the difference in compression down low?
                            sigpic

                            03 Accord DX: K24/5MT, peasant-spec old man's car
                            92 240SX: KA/T25, nerd mobile

                            Comment


                              #15
                              that intake restriction is playing make up for both: the piss poor compression & the ****ty intake manifold

                              It has a significant impact on turbulence & combustion swirl.

                              have a look at this:



                              mazda did things right with the head design. its just a shame the casting production was so small. I wouldve liked to see a blend of this old tech & the new...
                              ---Has ClubProtege helped you in someway? show your support by Contributing--- Click Here---

                              1992- project FE3..... 313 WHP @ 9.3psi




                              I pet my dash when I get into the car..."good car"
                              he actually has a mazda tree, parts grow on it

                              Comment

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