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Thread: Timing Map/GTR/MS3

  1. #1
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    Timing Map/GTR/MS3

    I'd like some opinions of this timing MAP. I think it is way to aggressive. But, it runs okay, I don't hear any detonation, and it pulls like crazy. It does break-up under full throttle at 5000 or so, but I'm certain it is plugs and fuel. The set-up is a MS3, stock GTR motor, COP. Right now it is running on 89 octane (I really have no business doing full throttle runs on this gas.) The plan is to dial it in on 89 for daily driving, then add a flex fuel sensor and use E85 for high power. AFR's are Lambda 1, except the cruise area (2500-3000 rpm, 40-60 kpa) where lambda is 1.1 and boost (100-150 kpa) where lambda is 0.9 and "max" boost (200 kpa) where lamba is set at 0.75.

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  2. #2
    Likes AWD a bit too much jay's Avatar
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    No way to tell if you have detonation by listening. What do the plugs look like? Of course if they show signs of detonation the damage is already done.
    '90 AWD Protege, full GTR drivetrain swap, ~320 whp daily driver, RIP, and
    '90 AWD Protege, yet another GTR swap, Open class rallycar with a Toyota GT4 gearbox swap, thus crossing the line between hobby and mental illness. And a Brabus E55 K8, removing all doubt.
    http://www.clubprotege.com/forum/vbp...?do=view&g=110
    http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2599486

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    SHAWN! MD323's Avatar
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    That map was made for 91 and tuned using DET cans . We based it off thereildeals map and made changes as needed

    PS you will have better luck over at miataturbo there are alot more ms3 cars on there than here
    "Discontent is the first necessity of progress."
    -Thomas A. Edison

    "There is a fine line between ballin' on a budget, and dreamin' on an empty wallet."


    *Junked* 92 mx3, BP swap- milage whore, beaten up and down the east coast
    *Junked* KLZE powered 323 on Megasquirt 1
    172.60HP & 156.93 TQ with only headers and short ram intake. back under the knife for a BPT swap.
    New Daily stock 1.6L 1999 Mazda Protege LX

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    I had the plugs out a few days ago and no signs of detonation, but it was defiantly running too rich. I just cleaned them up and re-gapped them. I've pulled a bunch of fuel out at cruise and idle. I have 2 knock sensors, from a 5-cly VW, they should work, but I'll need to put a knock sensor board in the MS3 and find a good place to mount them. But that's another item on a long list of things to do.

  5. #5
    Likes AWD a bit too much jay's Avatar
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    Especially on cheap gas I'd back that timing off 5 or 10.
    '90 AWD Protege, full GTR drivetrain swap, ~320 whp daily driver, RIP, and
    '90 AWD Protege, yet another GTR swap, Open class rallycar with a Toyota GT4 gearbox swap, thus crossing the line between hobby and mental illness. And a Brabus E55 K8, removing all doubt.
    http://www.clubprotege.com/forum/vbp...?do=view&g=110
    http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2599486

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    It's a really good tune, it behaves quite nicely; starts easy, no bucking or surging at cruise. When the car mis-behaves, I want to blame the tune (because I'm not familiar with it), but it is always something else. There is a small "dead" spot off-idle (I mean really small, but I can feel it): I think a TPS sensor will help that. I think i'll back timing off just a bit, just to be safe. It is going to head to the dyno one of these days to really dial in the timing, till then why take a chance?

    The 40+ degrees at cruise really bothers me. But, I'm basing that on my experience with V8s, distributors and carbs. The car seems fine at cruise, I don't have any drivability problems. I'd think if it was too much timing the engine would want to surge (like a 340 Chrysler with a too aggressive vacuum advance).

  7. #7
    Likes AWD a bit too much jay's Avatar
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    At cruise you should be fine. It also looks like those numbers are in the right rev range. Just not completely certain they back off enough with application of boost. And it's kinda odd how much it backs off at hiugh boost. IIRC my map was way more aggro up there. maybe I should go fire up the (very) old laptop and look at some old maps and see what my car use to run for sparkentiming.
    '90 AWD Protege, full GTR drivetrain swap, ~320 whp daily driver, RIP, and
    '90 AWD Protege, yet another GTR swap, Open class rallycar with a Toyota GT4 gearbox swap, thus crossing the line between hobby and mental illness. And a Brabus E55 K8, removing all doubt.
    http://www.clubprotege.com/forum/vbp...?do=view&g=110
    http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2599486

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    SHAWN! MD323's Avatar
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    Sorry if the previous post sounded snippy.

    The throttle tip in can be tuned even without a TPS we were simply not at that point yet honestly. The timing in the high load areas is actual not very aggressive as jay pointed out, mainly because 20psi in 3rd is a bit much for highway tuning around here lol.

    The AFR under boost was targeted at 10.8 for a "safe" road tune. Under that much boost i would not go above 11.4 under boost. I know thats voodoo here but with a high boost (20+) low comp motor it is pretty common.

    As far as the high timing in boost transistion anything else was sluggish on acxeleration and our EGTs shot up as soon as boost hit without more timing.
    "Discontent is the first necessity of progress."
    -Thomas A. Edison

    "There is a fine line between ballin' on a budget, and dreamin' on an empty wallet."


    *Junked* 92 mx3, BP swap- milage whore, beaten up and down the east coast
    *Junked* KLZE powered 323 on Megasquirt 1
    172.60HP & 156.93 TQ with only headers and short ram intake. back under the knife for a BPT swap.
    New Daily stock 1.6L 1999 Mazda Protege LX

  9. #9
    Likes AWD a bit too much jay's Avatar
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    Well yer on the right track there, if more timing lowered egt and it stopped being sluggish then timing needed advancing. Man, fuel maps are easy, ignition maps are a bit of a black art. The thing that pissed me off almost more than the *** who killed my car, was thewrting off of the maps in that setup. The ECU was old, but the maps were friggin dialed in....
    '90 AWD Protege, full GTR drivetrain swap, ~320 whp daily driver, RIP, and
    '90 AWD Protege, yet another GTR swap, Open class rallycar with a Toyota GT4 gearbox swap, thus crossing the line between hobby and mental illness. And a Brabus E55 K8, removing all doubt.
    http://www.clubprotege.com/forum/vbp...?do=view&g=110
    http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2599486

  10. #10
    SHAWN! MD323's Avatar
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    Always a bummer Jay. I wish it was easier to take a map from one unit to another. his original Ms 1 had a map on it from one of the best tuners in South Florida. Unfortunately none of the fancy excel calculators could translate the 8x8 map to 16x16 without it running horrible. I don't understand the drop in octane , is it a fuel cost thing? We were getting 30 miles to the gallon on the highway with it.
    "Discontent is the first necessity of progress."
    -Thomas A. Edison

    "There is a fine line between ballin' on a budget, and dreamin' on an empty wallet."


    *Junked* 92 mx3, BP swap- milage whore, beaten up and down the east coast
    *Junked* KLZE powered 323 on Megasquirt 1
    172.60HP & 156.93 TQ with only headers and short ram intake. back under the knife for a BPT swap.
    New Daily stock 1.6L 1999 Mazda Protege LX

  11. #11
    Riel Performance Parts therieldeal's Avatar
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    Yikes 89?!?!?! My map was never dyno tuned... butt dyno & drag strip only, and I always (always, always) run with 93 or 94 octane.
    Escort GTR -- 11.87 @ 117.6 mph -- 320 HP / 325 Ft. Lbs. @ 23 PSI
    ... The first FWD BG with a Toyota E153 transmission conversion in the USA!
    Looking for BP x Toyota E153 adapter plates? PM me or contact me on Facebook: Riel Performance Parts

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    SHAWN! MD323's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivet View Post
    The 40+ degrees at cruise really bothers me. But, I'm basing that on my experience with V8s, distributors and carbs. The car seems fine at cruise, I don't have any drivability problems. I'd think if it was too much timing the engine would want to surge (like a 340 Chrysler with a too aggressive vacuum advance).
    the biggest difference is this, in a Vacuum or centrifugal (or both) advance distributor your stuck to a linear curve of advance. So once your no longer held to that limitation and have the big fancy table to work with alot of the old ideas on timing dont hold true. I dont remember where I read it but when I first started out tuning BP's I found info showing the factory ecu runs 30 degrees in cruise.
    Quote Originally Posted by therieldeal View Post
    Yikes 89?!?!?! My map was never dyno tuned... butt dyno & drag strip only, and I always (always, always) run with 93 or 94 octane.
    I wish we had more than one sunoco up here in MD that had 93, E85 is just as rare.
    with that said after the car was fully sequential the plan was to use the two batch channels and run a 2nd set of alcohol injectors with the big turbo he bought. 89 with a setup like that would be very simple to impliment and allows you to get the cheap stuff at the pump and use the corn juice for boost only.
    "Discontent is the first necessity of progress."
    -Thomas A. Edison

    "There is a fine line between ballin' on a budget, and dreamin' on an empty wallet."


    *Junked* 92 mx3, BP swap- milage whore, beaten up and down the east coast
    *Junked* KLZE powered 323 on Megasquirt 1
    172.60HP & 156.93 TQ with only headers and short ram intake. back under the knife for a BPT swap.
    New Daily stock 1.6L 1999 Mazda Protege LX

  13. #13
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    Ran through full tank of gas for the first time and got 30.4 mpg. Not bad and I think there is room for improvement. It still runs rich at time and under higher boost levels it goes to lambda .69, even low levels of boost (5 psi) it runs lambda .8

    The reason for the "bad" gas is that I'm driving the car 140-150 a day and I may have to run it on that type of gas to get home. If I stay out of the gas pedal, it should not be a problem. Once I have the VE table "dialed-in", I'll put it on the dyno and take care of timing. Some-where in there it will get a flex-fuel sensor and it will run on E85 most of the time. I can get E85 near home and near work. I don't consider "premium" unleaded an option because it is still close to $3/gal here and is lower in octane than e85. I suppose I could run without the flex sensor and tune it in on e85 only; but I have all of this MS3 "computer horse-power" and why not take advantage of it.

  14. #14
    Likes AWD a bit too much jay's Avatar
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    4wd? I never got better than 27, you are doing well in the mpg department indeed.
    '90 AWD Protege, full GTR drivetrain swap, ~320 whp daily driver, RIP, and
    '90 AWD Protege, yet another GTR swap, Open class rallycar with a Toyota GT4 gearbox swap, thus crossing the line between hobby and mental illness. And a Brabus E55 K8, removing all doubt.
    http://www.clubprotege.com/forum/vbp...?do=view&g=110
    http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2599486

  15. #15
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    2wd, the 323. The 4wd pro, still sits with no front suspension, steering rack or engine/trans. But I hope to get similar numbers with the 4wd when it is up and running.

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