Transfered this thread from ProtegeClub for sake of prosperity.
Posted 2002-12-19 @ 15:48 by zenilder
Hey... Been a while since I last posted.
I am having my mechanic machine my engine for me, but I have a question regarding the crank. The DOHC engine that I paid 150 for from a guy I know on the EGT list landed up being F'd. The block itself was already .5 mil over, and the crank was 10/10, as the mechanic put it. I already bought Miata pistons that are a quarter over, so I can't use that block. The crank was bad, so I couldn't even use that. I landed up pulling the spare SOHC engine I had in storage to take to my mechanic. As it has been found, the SOHC crank is cast... Will I have problems down the line?
I'm not going to build up a purely street NA engine here, so I'm not going to make massive power. Prolly around 200hp with what I'm putting together. Will the cast crank handle this okay?
For those who want to know exactly what I'm putting together:
1. A P&P'd gude DOHC head with "15 hp" (claimed from the guy I spoke with at Gude, but the jerk never gave me a straight answer to whether or not the cams were from him) cams. The head is shaved also.
2. Miata pistons, 10:1
3. Custom built cam gears by the mechanic for timing purposes
4. Injectors flow tested and matched
A few other things here and there, but these are the most important regarding power production.
For now, I'll have to run off a DOHC ecu. I'm not going to race it much or drive it hard in fear that it might run too lean. Have to save up a little to get the Wolf 3D EMS I want from Wolf EMS.
I'll prolly only land up putting on an adjustable fuel regulator and a higher-rated fuel pump.
Any other suggestions are welcome.
Thanks in advance.
Posted 2002-12-19 @16:00 by zenilder
Hrm. Just came across something which changes my idea about flow testing and matching my injectors, so I may be replacing them after all.
Anyone know good replacements that will fit without problems?
Well, I searched around for a bit and looks like I'll try a set from a 89.5-92 Toyota Supra non turbo at 305cc (light green top) first, and if it still runs a high duty cycle, then I'm going to pop in some from a 91 B2600 truck at 326cc.
I'll keep looking...
Posted 2002-12-19 @ 17:18 by Davard
The stock ECU will be the first big limitation on a HP build-up. One member of the EGT list put a lot of money into building up his BP (all of what you mentioned plus 11:1 pistons) and only managed 120 whp. Of course, his $2 autozone water pump alternator belt coming on his first dyno pull probably didn't help things. (His car overheated during the second dyno pull).
You really need to go with an aftermarket ECU to make the most out of your mods.
Oh, and 200hp is hardly a "mild" N/A motor.
Posted 2002-12-20 @ 12:33 by PseudoRealityX
The cams needed on a BP for 200 CRANK hp are still VERY wild. Sadly, although very possible, the BP isnt an easy motor to build into a NA monster. An easy way to gain hp would be to raise the redline a bit. Possibly 8000-8500. Stiffer springs, and solid lifters would be a REALLY REALLY good idea. Again, cams are what's going to really help out. There is also quite a bit of power to be found in both the intake and exhaust manifolds, but now youre getting into a bit more fab work. Also, 10.0:1 is awfully low as well from what you want your goals at....but if you already have it...
Since the motor is apart, do the rold bolts. Try to pickup a set of ARP or someone similar. If anything's going to grenade, its them.
As Davard said, TUNING IS EVERYTHING. A stand alone is the ONLY way to go. For injectors, GTX injectors arent horribly expensive, and they are 330s, which will be all the fuel you need in an NA BP.
Posted 2002-12-20 @ 09:00 by zenilder
True, I don't know that the cams will help out greatly. The guy said he'll take a look at them, and if I can do better with a regrind of the stock ones, he'll recommend the regrind.
I still have to run the pistons up to him so he can actually start machining everything, which I'll do today around lunch. I'll mention to him the bolts. It was definitely on my list, but I don't have a good tap set on hand so I'll land up asking if he can do it (a little extra money, but worth it IMO).
Well, my goals for the engine are not for massive power. If I don't reach 200hp, then that is cool. I'd be happy with 150 at the wheels.
I just wanted to build a slightly stronger engine than most Pros.
Yes, putting solid lifters from toda was something I was thinking about, but I certainly won't be doing it right now. Cash contraints. I'll prolly put them in sometime next year, or, heck, if I can't stand the HLAs after I have the engine built, I'll splurge for a set.
Stiffer springs are something I'll have to research into. I remember reading somewhere that someone found double springs for the 1.6, but I do not know if they are applicable for the 1.8.
Jesse, know of anything off-hand?
The intake and exhaust will come eventually when I have time and money. I think the stock DOHC VICS mani will do okay for now. I already have a POS Corksport header that I bought off GroHarlem, so I'm sure I'll get a bit more power out of that than with the stock exhaust mani. On the intake side, the only thing I'm doing for it now will be to buy a PRM intake system with a RX-7 MAF. I'm not sure if I want to do a CAI as of yet, as it's been raining here in socal, and I would fear for my engine if I were to put a CAI in. I might adapt something so I can switch it out easily when it rains and back again when it's sunny.
True, 10:1 is low, but I didn't have the money to have custom pistons made to have 11:1 or higher. Plus, I don't want to build an interference motor, but the engine may land up being one as it is.
Yeah, I know my power is within the use of a stand-alone. The system I want is 1500 so it's going to be a bit till I purchase it. I'm already sold on a Wolf 3D from reading about it and a buddie from down under recommending it, as he uses one for his Datto. The system also has a nice secruity feature.
Hrm. We'll see. I really know I need the EMS, but it's kind of hard right now.
Thanks for all the input. Please continue to comment if ya like!
Posted 2002-12-20 @ 11:44 by PseudoRealityX
I know you'll hate to hear it, but Id REALLY recommend doing the Stand alone first. Get used to how to work eveything with a motor thats not being pushed as much.
By the way, here is the "hamfisted" built NA engine from the EGT guy.
This is what happens when you try to run 11.5:1 pistons, full gude head, header, etc etc....on the STOCK ECU and VAF with NO other tuning.
Posted 2002-12-20 @ 12:50 by turboge
Donnie still has that motor available for sale I believe. If I was going to build a real racer i'd stick it in with the haltech and tune the piss out of it on 116 octane.
Posted 2002-12-20 @ 13:16 by MazdaRacer
wow, the ECU is a bottleneck, as i came close that with mere bolt ons. (115whp) That torque curve doesn't look as nice as mine either
and Braden hit 120whp with just a Haltech and 3" exhaust....mmmmm
Posted 2002-12-20 @ 15:17 by zenilder
Thanks for all the input.
I talked the mechanic today and discussed my options regarding the crank. He could do a couple of things: use the cast or build up the bad crank. So I told him go ahead and weld up/grind the throw that was bad on the forged crank. He's going to do some head work that will help (minor things, which can help air flow). He also threw the idea of dropping in some solid lifters with shims from a VW if the measurements are okay, and depending on that, he'll either regrind the cams for solid lifters or not. Either way, he's going to look over the cams and see what the best option is. If no go on the solid lifters, it'll either be the cams that came along with the gude head I bought, or regrind. Otherwise, I'll have to pop for, which I don't want to do considering the price for their set.
The gude head I bought from GroHarlem had already been milled, but he said he'll go back and measure the clearances to see if he can mill it a bit more.
As for fuel... Well, we talked about swapping in other injectors. I was thinking about putting a set from the list a mentioned, buying a high-rate fuel pump, and an adjustable pressure regulator (but I'm not thinking about building up the pressure so I can -force- more fuel through the injectors. no, I know that's not going to happen).
Let's see...
We decided to put a bit more clearance on the bottom end.
I told him I could bring in a set of the valve springs to be measured. He said this engine most likely won't need stiffer springs for higher rpms (so long as we put in the solid lifters), but he hasn't measured the springs yet. So we'll see. I'll run the springs up to him tomorrow.
I'll prolly check with the California distributor for Wolf EMS to double check the price. I know they recently released a number of new models so I'm hoping the price has dropped on the one I want. I really know the importance of the role a stand alone will play here, but I'm really restricted by money.
The machining he's going to do for me will run about 750 - 850 for all that he's going to do. The pistons and gaskets I already bought ran 800-something. So a 1500 EMS is going to be a bit much right now. Six months down the line, it won't be such a problem. So I'm waiting to see how things work out...
Again, please keep the comments coming.
Posted 2002-12-19 @ 15:48 by zenilder
Hey... Been a while since I last posted.
I am having my mechanic machine my engine for me, but I have a question regarding the crank. The DOHC engine that I paid 150 for from a guy I know on the EGT list landed up being F'd. The block itself was already .5 mil over, and the crank was 10/10, as the mechanic put it. I already bought Miata pistons that are a quarter over, so I can't use that block. The crank was bad, so I couldn't even use that. I landed up pulling the spare SOHC engine I had in storage to take to my mechanic. As it has been found, the SOHC crank is cast... Will I have problems down the line?
I'm not going to build up a purely street NA engine here, so I'm not going to make massive power. Prolly around 200hp with what I'm putting together. Will the cast crank handle this okay?
For those who want to know exactly what I'm putting together:
1. A P&P'd gude DOHC head with "15 hp" (claimed from the guy I spoke with at Gude, but the jerk never gave me a straight answer to whether or not the cams were from him) cams. The head is shaved also.
2. Miata pistons, 10:1
3. Custom built cam gears by the mechanic for timing purposes
4. Injectors flow tested and matched
A few other things here and there, but these are the most important regarding power production.
For now, I'll have to run off a DOHC ecu. I'm not going to race it much or drive it hard in fear that it might run too lean. Have to save up a little to get the Wolf 3D EMS I want from Wolf EMS.
I'll prolly only land up putting on an adjustable fuel regulator and a higher-rated fuel pump.
Any other suggestions are welcome.
Thanks in advance.
Hrm. Just came across something which changes my idea about flow testing and matching my injectors, so I may be replacing them after all.
Anyone know good replacements that will fit without problems?
Well, I searched around for a bit and looks like I'll try a set from a 89.5-92 Toyota Supra non turbo at 305cc (light green top) first, and if it still runs a high duty cycle, then I'm going to pop in some from a 91 B2600 truck at 326cc.
I'll keep looking...
The stock ECU will be the first big limitation on a HP build-up. One member of the EGT list put a lot of money into building up his BP (all of what you mentioned plus 11:1 pistons) and only managed 120 whp. Of course, his $2 autozone water pump alternator belt coming on his first dyno pull probably didn't help things. (His car overheated during the second dyno pull).
You really need to go with an aftermarket ECU to make the most out of your mods.
Oh, and 200hp is hardly a "mild" N/A motor.
The cams needed on a BP for 200 CRANK hp are still VERY wild. Sadly, although very possible, the BP isnt an easy motor to build into a NA monster. An easy way to gain hp would be to raise the redline a bit. Possibly 8000-8500. Stiffer springs, and solid lifters would be a REALLY REALLY good idea. Again, cams are what's going to really help out. There is also quite a bit of power to be found in both the intake and exhaust manifolds, but now youre getting into a bit more fab work. Also, 10.0:1 is awfully low as well from what you want your goals at....but if you already have it...
Since the motor is apart, do the rold bolts. Try to pickup a set of ARP or someone similar. If anything's going to grenade, its them.
As Davard said, TUNING IS EVERYTHING. A stand alone is the ONLY way to go. For injectors, GTX injectors arent horribly expensive, and they are 330s, which will be all the fuel you need in an NA BP.
True, I don't know that the cams will help out greatly. The guy said he'll take a look at them, and if I can do better with a regrind of the stock ones, he'll recommend the regrind.
I still have to run the pistons up to him so he can actually start machining everything, which I'll do today around lunch. I'll mention to him the bolts. It was definitely on my list, but I don't have a good tap set on hand so I'll land up asking if he can do it (a little extra money, but worth it IMO).
Well, my goals for the engine are not for massive power. If I don't reach 200hp, then that is cool. I'd be happy with 150 at the wheels.
I just wanted to build a slightly stronger engine than most Pros.
Yes, putting solid lifters from toda was something I was thinking about, but I certainly won't be doing it right now. Cash contraints. I'll prolly put them in sometime next year, or, heck, if I can't stand the HLAs after I have the engine built, I'll splurge for a set.
Stiffer springs are something I'll have to research into. I remember reading somewhere that someone found double springs for the 1.6, but I do not know if they are applicable for the 1.8.
Jesse, know of anything off-hand?
The intake and exhaust will come eventually when I have time and money. I think the stock DOHC VICS mani will do okay for now. I already have a POS Corksport header that I bought off GroHarlem, so I'm sure I'll get a bit more power out of that than with the stock exhaust mani. On the intake side, the only thing I'm doing for it now will be to buy a PRM intake system with a RX-7 MAF. I'm not sure if I want to do a CAI as of yet, as it's been raining here in socal, and I would fear for my engine if I were to put a CAI in. I might adapt something so I can switch it out easily when it rains and back again when it's sunny.
True, 10:1 is low, but I didn't have the money to have custom pistons made to have 11:1 or higher. Plus, I don't want to build an interference motor, but the engine may land up being one as it is.
Yeah, I know my power is within the use of a stand-alone. The system I want is 1500 so it's going to be a bit till I purchase it. I'm already sold on a Wolf 3D from reading about it and a buddie from down under recommending it, as he uses one for his Datto. The system also has a nice secruity feature.
Hrm. We'll see. I really know I need the EMS, but it's kind of hard right now.
Thanks for all the input. Please continue to comment if ya like!
I know you'll hate to hear it, but Id REALLY recommend doing the Stand alone first. Get used to how to work eveything with a motor thats not being pushed as much.
By the way, here is the "hamfisted" built NA engine from the EGT guy.
This is what happens when you try to run 11.5:1 pistons, full gude head, header, etc etc....on the STOCK ECU and VAF with NO other tuning.
Donnie still has that motor available for sale I believe. If I was going to build a real racer i'd stick it in with the haltech and tune the piss out of it on 116 octane.
wow, the ECU is a bottleneck, as i came close that with mere bolt ons. (115whp) That torque curve doesn't look as nice as mine either
and Braden hit 120whp with just a Haltech and 3" exhaust....mmmmm
Thanks for all the input.
I talked the mechanic today and discussed my options regarding the crank. He could do a couple of things: use the cast or build up the bad crank. So I told him go ahead and weld up/grind the throw that was bad on the forged crank. He's going to do some head work that will help (minor things, which can help air flow). He also threw the idea of dropping in some solid lifters with shims from a VW if the measurements are okay, and depending on that, he'll either regrind the cams for solid lifters or not. Either way, he's going to look over the cams and see what the best option is. If no go on the solid lifters, it'll either be the cams that came along with the gude head I bought, or regrind. Otherwise, I'll have to pop for, which I don't want to do considering the price for their set.
The gude head I bought from GroHarlem had already been milled, but he said he'll go back and measure the clearances to see if he can mill it a bit more.
As for fuel... Well, we talked about swapping in other injectors. I was thinking about putting a set from the list a mentioned, buying a high-rate fuel pump, and an adjustable pressure regulator (but I'm not thinking about building up the pressure so I can -force- more fuel through the injectors. no, I know that's not going to happen).
Let's see...
We decided to put a bit more clearance on the bottom end.
I told him I could bring in a set of the valve springs to be measured. He said this engine most likely won't need stiffer springs for higher rpms (so long as we put in the solid lifters), but he hasn't measured the springs yet. So we'll see. I'll run the springs up to him tomorrow.
I'll prolly check with the California distributor for Wolf EMS to double check the price. I know they recently released a number of new models so I'm hoping the price has dropped on the one I want. I really know the importance of the role a stand alone will play here, but I'm really restricted by money.
The machining he's going to do for me will run about 750 - 850 for all that he's going to do. The pistons and gaskets I already bought ran 800-something. So a 1500 EMS is going to be a bit much right now. Six months down the line, it won't be such a problem. So I'm waiting to see how things work out...
Again, please keep the comments coming.
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