Drift suspension

[SmackDaddy]

Who slipped on the ice before posting?

Where's the "I saw this coming" emoticon?

Follow with me.

Suspension 101

Oversteer, rear tires loose traction first, yippee.

Understeer, front tires first, boring and safe.

Neutral, front and rear go at the same time, use both hands.


"This is hugely oversimplified", ie. if bar is all you can change.

To correct Understeer you can do two things, increase traction to the front,
or decrease traction to the rear.

So you can basically 'tighten' up the front with a stiffer/stronger bar to gain
more traction(if there's any to be had). Or 'loosen' the rear end for less grip,
with a weaker/softer bar.

It's all about that traction ratio f/r, it doesnt matter which bar is bigger
physically.

Women can get laid easier than men, the moon landings were not faked, and
you probably shouldn't have bacon on that.

Gravity, can we all at least agree on gravity for christs sake.

Tell me what part of any of this I'm wrong about, please.

Or was your sidewalk slick?

[Kreator]

Sigh, ls I respectfullly disagree. This is hugely oversimplified, but...

Less rear bar = more oversteer, more front bar = more oversteer.

More rear = more understeer, Less Front = more understeer.

This is pretty much suspension 101.

But hey, no need to take my word for it, want actual proof?

Go outside, undo your rear bars endlinks, should take 5 minutes.
Go around a couple of corners.

Come back and post that same statement, I dare you.

Oh, and reattach your endlinks, my point has been made.

http://rogerkrausracing.com/overundr.html

http://platz.com/pca/germany/blatt/Blatt%208.htm

http://member.rivernet.com.au/btaylor/BMWText/technical/SuspensionFineTuning.html

so i'm guessing all those guys are smoking some really good crack? Get your facts straight first, then climb on the soap box.

i really wanted to stay out of this thread, but stupidity gotta end somewhere.

Rolling provides traction. In a sense that instead of moving perfectly to the side from inertia, your weight is transferred from left to right and is actually pushing DOWN onto your outside tire. When there is pressure on the tire, there is more traction to that particular tire. when u have a stiff rear (achieved by STIFFER rear sway bar), the weight transfer is smaller, and there is less pushing down force and more sideways moving force, making tires more likely to loose traction. Stiffening the front will make weight transfer harder to do in the front, making the car more likely to go straight when u want it to turn. Generally, less roll is better, as once weight moves to one side of the car providing more traction to that tire, there is less traction on hte other side. A good handling car perfectly balances traction ability of the tires with how stiff it is. Cars running race radials can afford alot of stiffness since their tires can withstand alot of sideways force. Regular tires are not as grippy and cars are better off having some roll. A really stiff car with regular tires will be slower then a car with softer suspension, and will constantly loose traction... going into drifts, which are NOT the fastest way around the corner.

And this brings me to the second part of the post. Drifting is lame. FWD, RWD, AWD. It has become a show, a trend. **** internet drifters, **** girl drifters, **** drifting wheels and body kits. Drifting is the new rice. Why am i saying this? I own one of the so beloved "dorifting" cars and i'm sick and tired of reading retarded crap on the boards.

But to answer the original question, drifting is achieved by setting up a stiffer rear suspension to induce oversteer. First three links pretty much tell you what you need to do to do that.

As for the escort, virtually all economy, sporty and event sports cars, are set up for understeer, because they are designed with numbnuts in mind who WILL press the brake pedal when they loose control. However, in the dirt, my escort was pretty happy to loose control of the rear with me just getting off throttle.

[mike_moss]

Where's the "I saw this coming" emoticon?

Follow with me.

Suspension 101

Oversteer, rear tires loose traction first, yippee.

Understeer, front tires first, boring and safe.

Neutral, front and rear go at the same time, use both hands.


"This is hugely oversimplified", ie. if bar is all you can change.

To correct Understeer you can do two things, increase traction to the front,
or decrease traction to the rear.

So you can basically 'tighten' up the front with a stiffer/stronger bar to gain
more traction(if there's any to be had). Or 'loosen' the rear end for less grip,
with a weaker/softer bar.

It's all about that traction ratio f/r, it doesnt matter which bar is bigger
physically.

Women can get laid easier than men, the moon landings were not faked, and
you probably shouldn't have bacon on that.

Gravity, can we all at least agree on gravity for christs sake.

Tell me what part of any of this I'm wrong about, please.

Or was your sidewalk slick?

...blah blah blah...

You're fighting a losing battle...funny thing is, I don't even have to fight to prove you wrong. Go do some research. Just because you wrote "Suspension 101" in your post, doesn't mean you're right. Go back to your sources and you'll find the truth.

[RALLYBP_94]

OUCH!!

[ChrisKory]

I did issue a 'spouting-off' warning didn't? Didn't I?

First, fwd cars, the 323/prot/escort included, are designed to under-steer at
their cornering limits. This is mostly a safety issue, but is also a byproduct of
FF arrangemets. This fact is not debatable, you seem to be the only one who
doesn't know this.

Can they made to oversteer? Absolutely, just about anything can be made to
oversteer, was it designed that way? Was the first generation 911 turbo
designed to do a 180 if you lifted off the gas?



So that large rear bar makes it oversteer huh?

You want to get smart with me? How about learning how to recognize the
context of a piece of information, before introducing it into an debate as your
rebuttal. Was that too complicated a sentence? Try reading something
without pictures.

Then, maybe you'll realize how ignorant that statement is, I dont want to
have to teach you to show you you're wrong.



Hmmm, well here's what I know.

That picture, you ignorant sarcastic little pissant, is what's left when you
replace EVERY piece of a 323's suspension (if its not in there I had already
chucked it, wasnt storing all the **** for a group pic).

Thats about the tenth different pile I've made like that in the last 15 years.

What the hell do you know? Jack ****, thats been established.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, you sir, are an assasin.

wow, your a pretty big asshole , and using insult to back up your false argument?
bravo.

http://www.stangbangers.com/91_Escort_GT_Article.htm

[SmackDaddy]

Why you can all go to hell.

Alright, here would be an example of why this is pissing me off.

http://rogerkrausracing.com/overundr.html

Thanks for the links kreator. I see you didnt bother reading the first two, because they both make my point. Freaking brilliant.

What are suggestions 13 + 14 to 'correct understeer'? ohhhh.

Next link? Hmm, they say the exact same thing. So the third guy disagrees, I can live with that, I think he's wrong...

So your contradicting my post, and using references that support my arguement, niiiice.

"...blah blah blah..."

So, you know your wrong, have nothing to say, and your only option after jamming your foot in your mouth is "...blah blah blah..." Ok, apology accepted, how's that bump?

"wow, your a pretty big asshole , and using insult to back up your false argument?"

No, actually I am a HUGE asshole, but all I am trying to do is dispell a little ignorance, and share some information I have.

Now I'm sorry if my witty retort hurt your feelings, disagreements from people who dont know the difference between over-steer and a powerslide make me crusty(not you).

The sad part is you dont seem like a dumbass, you do have a clue.

But what has myself and others bent is that whole 'designed' to oversteer thing, like I was trying to say earlier. It was desinged to under-, but it will oversteer, I know this seems like semantics, but anyhow.

Has anything I've written been shown to have been incorrect?

Dont like me? I'll get over it.

Think Im wrong? Prove it or shut the hell up!

[Kelly]

Wheres Jesse at?

[Kreator]

Alright, here would be an example of why this is pissing me off.

http://rogerkrausracing.com/overundr.html

Thanks for the links kreator. I see you didnt bother reading the first two, because they both make my point. Freaking brilliant.

What are suggestions 13 + 14 to 'correct understeer'? ohhhh.

jees, man you are just digging yourself deeper and deeper. first two links are talking about CORRECTING oversteer or understeer the last one talks about INDUCING

CORRECTING = opposite of INDUCING, so actually all three links are talking about same thing

13 & 14 say in order to CORRECT understeer, in other words INDUCE OVERSTEER, you "Soften front sway bar" and "Stiffen rear sway bar". and what you said:

Less rear bar = more oversteer

it's alright to not know physics or how suspensions work, but not knowing how to read is rather insulting....

go read some books. Oh wait we just figured out you don't know how to

[Kelly]

Wheres Jesse at?

[mike_moss]

"...blah blah blah..."

So, you know your wrong, have nothing to say, and your only option after jamming your foot in your mouth is "...blah blah blah..." Ok, apology accepted, how's that bump?

Meh, I could care less to sit here and type up a post proving you wrong. Besides, why should you believe me? Go check a book out of your local library and you can get owned in the privacy of your own home. Hell, you can get owned on the porcelain throne for all I care.

FYI:

http://www.miata.net/garage/soloii.html

What you state:

This is hugely oversimplified, but...

Less rear bar = more oversteer, more front bar = more oversteer.

More rear = more understeer, Less Front = more understeer.

This is pretty much suspension 101.

What a real autocrosser states:

BAR SIZE: The stiffer the bars the better the transitional response can be (slaloms, garages, etc), however, they will prove to be less forgiving to harsh steering inputs. ('Mr. Spin'). I recommend starting with small bars so they will be forgiving and when your driving style gets smoother as you get used to the new setup you should switch to something larger. Many sway bar 'kits' come with a rear bar that is too large for autocrossing and will typically cause oversteer. You probably will have to buy singles to get the combo you like. Torsen LSD equipped cars can get away with larger rear bars than the earlier Viscous LSD cars. The key to a fast viscous or open diff car is to keep the rear planted and not spin the inside rear tire in a power-on corner exit. Select a combo that slightly understeers for these cars.

There, I quoted his whole paragraph. Nothing more, nothing less. He is stating that larger rear bar creates more oversteer. Furthermore, check out his little table and see how the bar diameter gets larger as the oversteer increases.

Until you take your car out and really push it to the limits, STFU.

Awww look, I do care!

[superdave]

Meh, I could care less to sit here and type up a post proving you wrong. Besides, why should you believe me? Go check a book out of your local library and you can get owned in the privacy of your own home. Hell, you can get owned on the porcelain throne for all I care.

FYI:

http://www.miata.net/garage/soloii.html

What you state:


What a real autocrosser states:

There, I quoted his whole paragraph. Nothing more, nothing less. He is stating that larger rear bar creates more oversteer. Furthermore, check out his little table and see how the bar diameter gets larger as the oversteer increases.

Until you take your car out and really push it to the limits, STFU.

Awww look, I do care!

What he said.

[JesseSays]

Umm, I don't have time for this now. However, tomorrow, I will go through here and clean up all the bull****.


Why discuss something that's "hugely simplified" about something that is by no means simple.

[JesseSays]

Sigh, ls I respectfullly disagree. This is hugely oversimplified, but...

Less rear bar = more oversteer, more front bar = more oversteer.

More rear = more understeer, Less Front = more understeer.

This is pretty much suspension 101.

But hey, no need to take my word for it, want actual proof?

Go outside, undo your rear bars endlinks, should take 5 minutes.
Go around a couple of corners.

Come back and post that same statement, I dare you.

Oh, and reattach your endlinks, my point has been made.

This is not only wrong, but retarded.


for a protege, bigger rear bar will INCREASE OVERSTEER.

a larger front is a toss-up. It takes away traction in theory, but it also stops the car from leaning, and that keeps the camber closer to ideal, so by that action, you gain traction. Therefore, it depends.

[JesseSays]

for reference, that link from rogerkraus racing or whatever.... it's simplified.

[SmackDaddy]

Why I can go to hell

Dammit,

You articulated a point and provided supporting evidence.

Kreator I am a crackhead, I apologize for my hasty reply, I should have double checked. On that, I have been owned... sigh.

"Why discuss something that's "hugely simplified" about something that is by no means simple."

Exactly, this is pointless, and mostly my 'fault'.

I think the issue is context.

If everything is IDEAL, and bar is the ONLY thing you can change, LESSENING the amount of bar from it's 'ideal', will LOWER that ends grip. Yes, this is purely hypothetical, and "HUGELY" oversimplified, but it was never my desire to go down this road.

ChrisKory's assertion that the escort was 'designed' to oversteer was wrong, we all agree on that

I over reacted to his associating rear bar with this 'oversteering design' thing. After all that e-brake/powersliding nonsense, I think I felt a little like Charelton Heston on trial in Ape city, and all I could do was scream 'You damn dirty apes!'. I've been talking about a car's behaviour at the limits of a turn, not it's transitional response, which is something else. More of a case of bad choice of quotations than dumbness.

"The stiffer the bars the better the transitional response can be (slaloms, garages, etc), however, they will prove to be less forgiving to harsh steering inputs."

So the problem is we're arguing two different points.

So it's like we're all right about something .

Except Dave, Dave you're a sheep, baaaaah.

Lets recap,

Drifting is a controlled skid/slide.

If it is induced through the drive wheels, rear or 4/all, with the throttle it is a powerslide.

You know, thats all I really had to say in the first place, and then I got caught up in all the poo flinging.