N/A vs. Turbo???!!!!!!

[tony42086]

Hello everyone!!! This is my first thread and I'm debating on going N/A or Turbo for my car. I have an 03 protege lx, with the 2.0 L FS/DE engine and if I'm not mistaken the BJFP chassis. On protege FAQ it says:

BJ refers to the 3rd generation Protegé & Protegé 5 (9th generation Familia)

BJFP refers to the 2.0 liter Protegé (FS engines)

So I'm assuming since the engine is the FS it's a BJFP chassis. Tranny is an auto. No mods yet. She's got 100k for miles and it's in great shape since I've owned it since 26K and have been on the mark with scheduled maintenance. Now that I've listed the specs, let me list what I was thinking.

Turbo thoughts
From doing research, I've come to the conclusion that the key components of my engine may as well of been made with wood when it comes to strength. It seems that the FS/DE wasn't made to handle a forced induction system without using forged steel components to beef it up (at least this seems to be the thought amongst many ppl). So I would like some pointers from you guys on what the preferred cams, rods, pistons, etc would be to use (I'm a noob to tuning). I wanna say that I read somewhere that there isn't any aftermarket cams for the FS/DE, and the move would be to just upgrade to the components of the JDM FS/ZE since they will fit my engine. Also, i heard an auto tranny is no bueno when it comes to turbo apps. I'm assuming using less boost and doing something to sure up the tranny is in order right? Some clarity on this will most appreciated. Once this gets done, can anybody recommend a turbo system for my engine? From what i've heard it's better to piece it together than buying as a whole, and if that's the case, any recommendations on the parts would be great.

N/A Thoughts
So, as far as the na goes, i guess the main things you would do without getting deeply involved with the engine itself are intake, header, and exhaust. From the research it seems to be a small gain in power. This makes sense to me as making your engine breathe better can only unlock what was being robbed to begin with. In the end your still beefing ur engine components up to get the gains you want. I'd like to know what else I could do with a N/A to get some added ponys and torque. On another forum one person said 200hp was about all you could pull out of my engine, but he may have been talking about the FS/ZE, not the FS/DE that I have. Also he didn't indicate if that was bhp or whp so....who knows.

Conclusion
Ok, so what I'm doing here is trying way the pros and cons of each. I am in need of your input here. It seems like the n/a is the way to go 2 start for a noob, but in the end your still doing engine work to get any real gains. My thought on that is if i'm having to do engine work, it might as well be prep for a turbo system right? I'd like to have a rough idea of what gains i can get from doing the turbo app and the n/a app. LETS NOT BE BIASED TOWARDS ONE OR THE OTHER FOLKS!!!!!! I WANT THE FACTS!!!!! I was thinking of going n/a then going to turbo, but that was before I found out that certain mods. are tailored to turbo apps or n/a apps. Hopefully one of you guys have gone down one road or the other with the same engine as mine and can provide some nice feedback. As far as budget goes, well....it's a work in progress. All about the 6 Ps, piss poor planning promotes poor performance so I'm tryin 2 get all the info i can before i go to town. Any help is appreciated.

[vtec-this]

auto = tragedy

n/a = not acceptable

if you want a slow car that makes alot of noise, go n/a

if you want a fun car with decent reliability go with a stock msp setup. how long your auto transmission can last is another subject.

[tony42086]

So would ripping the auto tranny out and putting a manual in be the way to go? And if I'm gonna go through that headache, would u recommend the beefing of my engine or should I go engine swap? Perhaps I can find a beefier engine w/a manual tranny and just knock 2 birds out with one stone? Or should I go with a new manual tranny and the mazdaspeed? What would you recommend? My purpose for doing this is to have some added ponys for my daily commute. Here in Massachusetts we have a lot of intersections that are 2-3 lanes that drop down to 1-2 lanes after the light/stop sign (i know its retarded). I'd like to beat those soccer moms driving their SUVs that way I'm not stuck behind these slow arrrrsssseee MFs. This is hard to do since I have a lawn mower engine in my car, with it's minimal hp/torque. If I'm not mistaken my car's like 130hp and 135 lbs/tq. This to me isn't gonna be a super duper take the pinks from ya style race car, even when fully modded (unless I do some crazy engine swap). If I can get to around 160-200hp and lb/tq I'd be cool with that. So what would you recommend?

[ziggyjanz]

Opinions on who makes the best complete turbo kit?

[tony42086]

Yo V-tech....any suggestions?

[tranny_buster]

if your going the turbo route, honestly the car just isnt really a good platform to start with IMO.

the best solution would be taking the trans/engine out converting to manual and swapping in the msp engine ecu, etc...

for the price of doing all those things you could sell your car and just buy a Mazdaspeed protege.. you know what i mean?

even the mazdaspeed protege's have sensitive engines from what i have read they cant handle very much tweaking.. basic intake exhaust front mount and maybe a few more psi would be all i would throw at it , might even be pushin it.. people build there engines and have trouble with reliability past about 350 whp.. the design just isn't intended for high horsepower. they are made for handling more than straight-line speed. im not saying these engines are garbage, just dont expect to be able to make it a 12 second car very easily.. the trans, rods, etc are to blame lol..


BUT, you did say all you wanted was a car that can beat the soccer moms in there fancy suv's lol. so a stock Mazdaspeed protege would be great for you it sounds like.


if you go NA you'll be sad cause youll still get beat buy those moms and you'll have a loud car that doesnt really go anywhere. and im not saying NA cars are slow but for the money spent, turbo is the way to go.

just my .02

[therieldeal]

pretty sure the MSP engine is the same as a stock 2.0, it just has a turbo bolted on the side.

[goldstar]

pretty sure the MSP engine is the same as a stock 2.0, it just has a turbo bolted on the side.

Yes, the normally aspirated FS-DE is essentially the same as the MSP FS-DET engine. There are no fundamental differences. The turbo engine has a water-cooled oil cooler installed between the block and the oil filter and a stiffer #3 engine mount. It also has OEM platinum plugs rather than the nickel alloy types used in the FS-DE engine. Of course, it also has a different PCM. Unfortunately, I think the coolant radiator is smaller to accomodate the factory intercooler.

Run at stock boost, the MSP is fairly reliable and develops 170 BHP (127 kW) @ 6,000 rpm and 160 lbs/ft torque (217 N-m) @ 3,500 rpm. That's 40 BHP (31%) and 25 lbs/ft (19%), at 500 less rpm, more than the non-turbo engine. Redline is 6,500 rpm, the same for both engines. That's a pretty decent output and you'd be hard-pressed to obtain that from modding the normally aspirated version. IMO, it would make one hell of a daily driver.

Additionally, The MSP transmission has a Tochigi Fuji Sangyo limited slip differential. It also has a shorter shift lever, similar to the MP3 - shorter above the fulcrum point only, by ~ 1", so it's not a short shifter - but it allows shifts to be made with less hand movement.

Turboing the FS-DE using the factory setup is a relatively easy, trouble-free way to accomplish the task.

The front axles are 24 mm versus the 22 mm of the non-turbo car.

For more information, go to:

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/car/02q3/mazdaspeed_protege-road_test

Happy Motoring!

[tony42086]

OK, so....you say

Turboing the FS-DE using the factory setup is a relatively easy, trouble-free way to accomplish the task.

And Vtec says...

auto = tragedy

n/a = not acceptable

if you want a slow car that makes alot of noise, go n/a

if you want a fun car with decent reliability go with a stock msp setup. how long your auto transmission can last is another subject.

So are you saying that if I go MSP setup on my FS DE I will
A) accomplish what I'm trying to do and....
B) as long as my boost is set at stock level my auto tran will be OK?

Big thing to remember this bad boy isn't a racer, it's a work car that could be a little funner to drive. I definitely don't want to blow by tran in the process.

[tony42086]

Oh yeah tranny buster, you wrote:

if your going the turbo route, honestly the car just isnt really a good platform to start with IMO.

the best solution would be taking the trans/engine out converting to manual and swapping in the msp engine ecu, etc...

for the price of doing all those things you could sell your car and just buy a Mazdaspeed protege.. you know what i mean?

This car was the first one I bought from a dealership and it means a lot to me. It looks great w/it's rim/tint and has a sweet sound system so I really want to keep it ya know? Tough to let go of something you busted ass working for so long to get. When I got that statement saying zero balance....priceless.

[tranny_buster]

yea i know what you mean..


like what Goldstar said though.. you could bolt the msp turbo kit on your engine, then all you would have to do is worry about the fuel system? i dont think they made automatic MSP. maybe? im not sure... if they did you could snag the ecu.OR you could build a custom setup, the easiest/cheapest fuel system would probably be an adjustable FPR, some larger fuel injectors (300cc-450cc would be plenty for 200-300 whp), and a super afc or greddy e-manage, etc.. something along those lines..


first thing i would do is jump on a number of forums and find a stock turbo setup for a good deal.


go turbo. you wont regret it.

[goldstar]

So are you saying that if I go MSP setup on my FS DE I will
A) accomplish what I'm trying to do and....
B) as long as my boost is set at stock level my auto tran will be OK?

Big thing to remember this bad boy isn't a racer, it's a work car that could be a little funner to drive. I definitely don't want to blow by tran in the process.

A) If you go the MSP route you should accomplish your goals of a nice boost in performance as a daily driver, which seems to be your intention.

B) With stock boost, the reliability of the engine should be fine for your purposes. However, the MSP was only available with a M/T so the reliability of an A/T under these circumstances is an unknown quantity. Also, the wheel HP and torque will be somewhat less with an A/T than with an M/T because of the greater driveline loss of the A/T. I would imagine that if you were willing to drive in a fairly conservative manner, the A/T would probably provide reasonably reliable service.

Ideally, It would probably be better to obtain a M/T as a replacement assuming the additional cost wasn't prohibitive. Any 3rd Gen '01-'03 M/T would be suitable (G15M-R). A junkyard would be a good, economical source for both a transmission and, with luck, the whole MSP turbo setup. If you could get a MSP transmission it would already have the LSD installed. If not, you could install it on your own, or have it done for you, if you so chose.

Happy Motoring!

[1Mazda323Fan]

Thoughts on the turbo route:

If you really want to get the MSP engine, you'll almost certainly have to get the trans with it, as I doubt seriously the auto will bolt up without modification. Besides, it'll probably break before too long with the extra power. Plus, the MSP trans has a nice helical limited slip in it, which you'll want with the extra power, and you won't have to pay someone to install it later. That being said, the powertrain is going to be rather expensive. Can't say for sure, but figure at least a couple grand. Then it needs to be installed. If you have, or have access to, a garage and an engine hoist, and a long weekend and friends, that'll save a lot of money. If not, then it might be best to go aftermarket. Find a turbo kit prefabbed, or make one yourself. It's actually not that hard. However, for your purposes, and the longevity of your engine, get a small turbo and keep the boost to around 10 psi max. That should get you close to your power goals.

As for N/A:

This route will not require an engine swap, but will require you to tear down quite a bit to attain your power goals. Intake, exhaust (header back; do NOT gut your cat for the love of god), cams, cam gears, bigger throttle body, intake manifold, maybe a port and polish....it's a fair bit of work, but a good bit can be done by you in the driveway, and the engine gets to stay put. I priced up most of the aforementioned parts and the total came to about $4000. Theoretical power would be 170-180 crank hp, which would suit me just fine. Should fulfill your goal, too. As an added bonus, you probably wouldn't need to futz with the fuel system much, if at all, going this route. Plus no turbo lag. Yes, it's still a lot of work, but it will probably be cheaper in the long run (factoring in installation costs).

So, basically, both will work, it's just a matter of how much you want to spend and how much work you're willing to do/have done. Or, as was previously suggested, get a Mazdaspeed Protege and call it a day.

Side note: If by some fluke you can find a supercharger for your car, get it instead. I sincerely doubt you will (I've never been able to), but if you can that'll definitely take care of the power and requires less fuss to install than a turbo. And if you find one, let me know. I've been looking for a long time now and I'd love one for my car.

[goldstar]

Modifying the Normally Aspirated Engine: the MP3

Just an idea of some of the things that can be done to improve the performance of the FS-DE engine.

Modifications
In 2001 (for that year only), Mazda came out with a special version of the Protege called the MP3. Engine mods were minimal and consisted of a reprogrammed PCM that permitted a more advanced ignition timing curve. Unlike the stock PCM, it could "read" the octane rating of the fuel in use and adjust the ignition advance accordingly. Thus, one could run 87 octane with reduced timing for economy or use plus or premium with correspondingly more advanced timing and greater HP output.

Additionally, a tuned Racing beat, low restriction muffler was fitted along with, I believe, a larger crossover pipe leading back to the cat.

Finally, the intake manifold was less restrictive due to the absence of VTCS (variable tumble control system). VTCS consists of a set of butterflies inside the manifold that helps provide lower emissions during cold startup. After warmup is complete, the butterflies are fully open but still provide some restriction due to the presence of the plates and shaft. In the standard protege, this assembly permits the car to have a ULEV emissions classification instead of the LEV rating of the MP3. Incidently, VTCS can be removed from the stock Protege intake manifold.

There were no other engine mods and the intake system (other than VTCS) was completely stock, identical to the standard Protege.

Results
FS-DE (stock)
130 BHP (97 kW) @ 6,000 rpm
135 lbs/ft (183 N-m) torque @ 4,000 rpm

FS-DE (MP3 mods)
140 BHP (104 kW) @ 6,000 rpm
142 lbs/ft (193 N-m) torque @ 4,500 rpm

Three relatively simple mods provided an increase of 8% HP and 5% torque. Not a lot perhaps but it shows what a few simple mods could do. Couple this with a more efficient, ambient air temperature intake, and some true synthetic engine and transmission oil, and you'll see a bit more without ever having to go inside the engine.

For more information, go to:

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/car/01q3/mazda_protege_mp3-first_drive_review

Happy Motoring!

[tony42086]

As for N/A:

This route will not require an engine swap, but will require you to tear down quite a bit to attain your power goals. Intake, exhaust (header back; do NOT gut your cat for the love of god), cams, cam gears, bigger throttle body, intake manifold, maybe a port and polish....it's a fair bit of work, but a good bit can be done by you in the driveway, and the engine gets to stay put. I priced up most of the aforementioned parts and the total came to about $4000. Theoretical power would be 170-180 crank hp, which would suit me just fine. Should fulfill your goal, too. As an added bonus, you probably wouldn't need to futz with the fuel system much, if at all, going this route. Plus no turbo lag. Yes, it's still a lot of work, but it will probably be cheaper in the long run (factoring in installation costs).

Thank you for giving me a performance increase number mazda323. This looks like the route for me as I'm not experienced on working at cars. I think engine and trans. swaps might be a bit too much for me at this time. Maybe I'll part out later on down the line and give it a whirl. I'm a do it yourself kinda guy and the things I can do with cars is limited. As long as were not talking internals(engine and transmission) I can do it myself. So I think beefing up my car N/A will serve as a good learning experience as well as meeting my goals. Do you mind listing off all the things you scrapped together for that 4k total of yours? Also, I'd like to point out my unc. is a mechanic of 20+yrs so I'll have all the help and tools I need.