2000 Protege ES Rear Engine Mount & Subframe

[gvis]

Hey everyone. New member here. Great site.

I've replaced all my motor mounts but the rear and I'm stuck on dropping the subframe to gain access to the mount's bolts. The 17mm nuts on the long bolts coming down from the upper subframe connection in the wheel wheels are pretty tight and I don't have a metal pipe with a diameter large enough to fit my wrench into to get extra leverage. Those nuts were removed 3 years ago when the dealership replaced the rear mount, so it hasn't been too long since they've been cracked (vs 12 years of freezing up). Before I go down the path of getting a larger pipe or a sepcial socket, I'd like your help on the rest of the subframe work to make sure it's worth proceeding.

I'm not sure which other subframe bolts to loosen or remove. On the control arms, is it just the two outer bolts, where one also connects a bracket over the arm bushing? or is it just the one outer bolt that doesn't connect the bushing bracket? I'd like to avoid removing control arm bolts to the point of the bushing popping out. Not a huge deal, but I've replaced the control arms before it was a minor pain getting the bushing and holes to line up.

Do I need to loosen or remove the two front bolts at the front of the car that attach the long bracket to the subframe? This is the same bracket that supports the front engine mount. If so, I'm guessing I need to loosen the two bolts holding that front mount so that the subframe can drop with that bracket attached.

Regarding loosen vs removal, is it enough to just loosen and let the subframe drop, or do I need to fully remove the bolts and support the subframe with jacks? If jacks are needed, it looks like I may need one for each side, or is there a support point in the middle, such as where that cross bracket connects? I've only got one floor jack and would like to avoid getting another.

Detailed, I know. I'm just pressed for time and trying to avoid complications. But I'd like to save $200 or $300 and do it myself, especially since I'm guessing I may need to do this again one day. I'll be keeping the car another 8 years, and the last mounts lasted only 20k miles, either due to the idle issues I'd had but didn't resolve back then (because I thought it was just the blown mounts causing the rough idle) or that I used beck/arnley mounts, which I've used again without thinking they could be the cause (until now, dooh!). But I have resolve dmy rough idle issues, so hopefully these will last longer.

I also had a habit of shifting into park at lights because I hate holding the brake in rush hour, but I hadn't realized that a tranverse front drive design rolls the engine back so much when shifting between park and drive, so maybe that contributed to the wear.

I'm no expert mechanic, but I've done on lot on various cars over the last 30+ years, so I know if I spend enough time on it I can do it myself. The key is reducing time and complications with more knowledge, so any help is greatly appreciated!

PS: I don't have a shop manual like my other vehicles, so if anyone knows where I can down load one (preferrably free), I'd be grateful.

Cheers

[gvis]

Latest:

Got a craftsman ratchet/socket set with the hole deisgn that lets the bolt shoot through the ratchet, so that should allow my existing pipe to ifit over it and give me some leverage. Hope the ratchet is strong enough. It's 3/8, not 1/2.

Borrowed an extra floor jack from a friend, in case I need two.

Any tips on the best way to drop the subframe, with the least amount of trial and error..lol, is appreciated. thanks

[MazdaNoob]

dont leave the car on a jack PLEASE proper jack stands as you may easily move the car while undoing those bolts

[gvis]

dont leave the car on a jack PLEASE proper jack stands as you may easily move the car while undoing those bolts

Of course. I would use the extra jack to ease it down onto jack stands. I've got 6 jack stands, just only one jack...until now; just borrowed a buddies. It's a tranny jack with a large tray, so that may make it easier. But thanks for the concern...can never be too safe.

I don't think this will be too bad. I just may end up undoing some things that don't need to be undone; the usual first time trial and error thing, with no manual.

Anyone ever used these beck/arnley mounts? Are they junk compared to Mazda oe? If they fail again at 20k and my idle and driving are fine, I may need to use mazda next time.

[gvis]

Dropping the subframe was a piece of cake. No need to use a jack to control lowering. I actually had to prod it down onto jack stands. And only one of the three control arm bolts are also subframe bolts.

Had to be careful not to over extend the power steering lines, etc. But 2 inches is enough to reach the rear engine mount nuts and that didn't over extend anything from what I could tell. I needed to disconnect the sway bar end links so that I could rotate it to get better access to the mount nuts.

Not finished yet because my 10 year old sears shop light failed (broken pc board connection for a cap, which I can resolder) just when I was about to remove the mount, so I'll resume tonight. Can't do this thing in dark...lol.

Nice to know I don't have to pay someone else to do this.

[vw.fe2o3]

Not sure if you need this info but Corksport has a mount removal and installation PDF you can grab here:

http://support.corksport.com/instruc...127-10-WEB.pdf

It's for installing their mounts, but removal procedures should be the same. I have done the other three, haven't done the rear one yet. Doesn't look fun and I'm waiting for cool weather to do that and my timing belt.

If you keep chewing through stock replacement mounts, you might consider some from those guys or another vendor I can't recall. Harder compound stuff that probably lasts longer but I've heard will transmit more engine vibes to the cabin.

[gvis]

Thanks fe2o3. Looks like a later model because there seem to be some differences. I'll take some pics of where it's at now because it's pretty much in a spot where everything is dropped and ready for the change.

I've been researching those types of poly mounts after starting this process and I'm concerned about the vibration transfer you mentioned. I've just solved rough idle, which is basically the same vibration, so I'd like to avoid it coming back. But I don't want to keep going through engine mounts.

I wonder if oe Mazda mounts, vs the oe style beck/arnley's are somewhere in between regarding durability. I don't paying extra to avoid changing them so often.

PS: I noticed the VW engine in your avatar. My first car was a gold 74 sun bug (but not super beetle), and I modded some things on it that back in the 70's. Not sure if they still exist, but I used some gene berg stuff back then, etc. Great memories from that car.

[vw.fe2o3]

I bought a cheap set of Ebay mounts that appear to be the same manufacturer that is carried in many other places. We'll see how they hold up, but I won't be surprised to have to replace them. Especially since I've yet to do the rear, so in the meantime the three new ones are probably getting a bit of extra abuse.

My 74 is a Sun Bug Gene Berg does exist along with a host of other online suppliers. You'd be shocked at how readily available parts still are for these things. Unfortunately Chinese quality is as well represented there as with everything else, so it's a minefield of trash quality out there.

[gvis]

No way. Same car...the odds! Gene berg made great stuff, but I bought one of his first alloy drag shifters and they installed the shift plate backwards. Ruined my tranny on the first launch because it went into reverse instead of first. They totally denied they screwed up and refused to pay for a new tranny. I was poor then and couldn't afford to litigate (couldn't really afford the new tranny either), and they were in CA and I was in VA. Plus I was young and aware of what I could and couldn't do legally. Oh well. Last time I bought anything from them. But I fixed their mistake and used that shifter after getting a new tranny. It did last and shift well. Massive piece of metal.

Yes, the others will take more abuse if any one is not at the same level. I drove for a week on the last replacement before having the dealer replace the rear. Maybe that trashed the new fronts, which then trashed the delayed new rear. This time I'm replacing them all. We'll see.

[gvis]

Finished intalling the rear mounts. Not too bad a job overall, but when I first tested it the steering wheel wouldn't engage. Right away I knew what ahd happened.

The internet guidance I'd found said to lower the subframe 2 inches, but that wasn't enough with the tools I have (my 17mm wrench isn't a special angle nor extra long, and by then the stores were closed), so I had to go to 4 inches to allow a socket to work from the top of the bracket (vs an angled wrench from just under the tranny tunnel, which is where the dealer had done it given all the scratches they left).

That pretty much maxed out the reach of the power steering line, and I had considered disconnecting the steering rack and hanging it 2 inches higher, but it was bloody hot and I forgot, and by the time I finished I'd forgotten about steering...lol. What a surprise when the wheel would spin forever, after all that work.

A pita having to lower it all over again so I could line up and connect the steering spline in the cabin, but the steering fix was easy, it all worked out and now I can do the job pretty quick.

All vibration issues are gone except one small one. I'll create a separate thread with a question on that.