Starting/Charging issue (For the BG guys)

[Lord_Vader]

Ok, posted this on FEOA, and got little to no responses, Figured you BG guys could help out.

1991 Escort GT Cayman 1.8L BP05

Ok, so, I changed over my alternator, just because I thought it needed changed due to the bearings giving out in it (yes I know the bearings are 40.00) and I changed it out. Well, it had given me NO issues until this point except for a squealing noise that I presumed came from the alt, because after running it, the pulley would be hot.

ANYWAYS, I said that so that I could say this: I've done everything short of testing it with a voltimeter. I've seen on FEOA people saying it could be an ignition switch, or an alternator (the one I replaced the old one with tested fine at Oreilly) and it has a new-ish battery on it. What am I missing here? It sat just about all day, I would go out there and crank it every 30 min to see if there was some sort of drain, and it fired right up every time without a hitch....

Well, I went 1/2 mile up the road to the cigarette store, grabbed me a pack of Newport Non-menthols, came back outside, drove home, parked it (5 spd) and cut it off. I tried to cut it back on, and it would turn over, but was extremely SLOW, and after turning the key back and trying 3 times, it wouldn't do squat.

What to check without a Multimeter? I can rig a test light and base it off of brightness at the bulb, but what should I be looking for? Checked the alt, swapped it out for the previous one, charged the battery all night last night, and still.... NOTHING. I'm getting aggravated and irritated, because it seems like everyone is questioning my knowledge on the car, and on FEOA (not bashing here btw, love them guys!) It seems like nobody really knows, because I have 100 something views, and 5 replies and 3 of those were mine. SO, why not come to the Mazda gurus and try it again and see if I have any luck.

In advance, thanks! I highlighted the major points of concern in bold and italic, so that if you were just trying to figure out what my problem was and not listen to me rant, it'll be easier for you.

JD

[Lord_Vader]

Oh and just for a bump (not like it needs it, not many topics in the EGT subforum) The alt was bench-tested and all systems go. The belt is brand new, both the Acc belt and the drive belt.

[gofanu]

So, why are you telling us this? What IS the problem? Dead battery? Good battery but won't crank (sometimes)? Got lights when it won't start?
Sounds like you are claiming two good alts and at least one good battery.
"...questioning (your) knowledge on the car" Nothing wrong with not knowing, so long as you know you don't know and make some effort to learn.
If you are too cheap to buy a $10 meter, I'm too lazy too tell you how to use it!

FRM

[Lord_Vader]

It's not so much being cheap sir, but have you looked outside lately? The economy isn't exactly BOOMING. I got laid off from my job, and called back in this upcoming monday, so I haven't exactly had the luxury (or way to go) to get a multimeter.

ANYWAYS, Yes, two good alts, both bench tested and the battery I had in it before, and the NEW one that I put in it when I thought it was the battery. I KNOW how to use a voltimeter, smart alek, I just don't have one because someone 'borrowed' mine, and never returned it. I was a tech at the Ford dealership here in town, so lack of knowledge is not an issue, but lack of tools is. Had to sell all of those when they let me go due to nobody bringing their vehicles in, thus, having no work for me or the other 4 techs that worked there.

So, has anyone had this kind of problem? I've done everything short of a multimeter test, and I WOULD if I HAD one. I'm not looking for smart alek answers like the above, I put everything into PLAIN english, and even HIGHLIGHTED it for clarity.

I'm not here to get in a pissing match with ANYONE, just don't insult my intelligence. I'm looking for help, due to the fact I can't take this thing to the shop, because it is my only 'running' car. Sitting still it doesn't die after idling for 10-15 min, nor when the + terminal is removed with the car running, so it's not the Alt. Battery was charged all night, and the next morning it fired right up and had NO issues until I had to go to the store.

[Lord_Vader]

I've been out there troubleshooting it to the best of my ability with the tools I have, for the past 3 days, so don't say 'so long as you know you don't know and make some effort to learn' because just last week, I had the trans out, flywheel resurfaced and everything replaced. These cars are not mechanically hard to work on, I just loathe electrical work, even though I do know how to do it, given the proper tools.

[Lord_Vader]

Ok.... so the car has been sitting since 8:30, I went out at 10:15, just to test a theory (batt light not coming on, must be in the fusible link, or so I've read here - http://www.feoa.net/modules.php?name...er=asc&start=0 ) SO, went out to check it, to see if the battery light was on, and figured, What the hell, let's give it a crank for old times sake.... Fired right up. I don't know what the issue is, but whatever it is, is directly related to the car being in motion.

[Lord_Vader]

Ok, so on a cold start, it fires right up. Could it be the Ign coil itself that is going out? Anyone know the symptoms of one taking a dump?

[XelderX]

Have you tested the starter? I was having a similar problem with my racecar and i thought it was a bad ground or 12 volt feed to the starter. Replacing those items didn't solve it. ended up pulling the starter out and having it bench tested. Found that the bushings in the starter were coming apart and causing too much drag on the starter. Heat probably made it worse which is why it cransk cold, but not hot.

[Lord_Vader]

No I actually haven't, but it sounds like it's worth a shot! Couldn't I use a 12v power source and do it that way? What gets me is that it would start on a dime while it was sitting parked for hours, but when I went to go to the store, I noticed my lights and HUD had dimmed almost all the way out before I got home. Keep in mind, I walk to the end of my road, 300 feet, and I can see the store and parking lot from my street. Got home and it wouldn't crank for anything... Does Advance Auto parts or any of those retailer type stores test starters? I've literally run out of ideas, and the next guess was going to be my ignition coil due to the fact it's missing. Thanks for the heads up, and I'll do what I can to try and fix it, even if it means another trip to the JY.

If I can get consistent results from the hot start/cold start issue, I'll use that to my advantage, so what if I gotta sit somewhere for an hour or better to wait on my starter to cool down? As long as eventually it will get me from A to B, I don't care.

Would the starter cause it to dim the crap out of everything though? That's my real concern, because albeit it doesn't die while driving, I don't want it to screw my flywheel up if it's sticking, and I don't want to have to replace more parts than needed at the moment, as I've been out of work since Jan. and it's taken it's toll on my pocketbook.

Thanks again!

[XelderX]

I know all the Advance stores in my area can test starters. If the car is running and you are getting dimming problems then it probably isn't the starter. If the starter was dragging it would create a very large load on the electrical system and draw voltage from everything else causing a dimming problem, but once the car was running the starter shouldn't be doing anything to affect the rest of the electrical system.

[FE3-323]

you can replace your entire charging system harness in about 10 minutes. & yes check your starter.

you may have a short to ground somewhere

[Lord_Vader]

Thats what I was thinking, was possibly a short to ground. I know it sounds like a duditz question, but how do I disconnect the charging system harness? Looks like I may be going to get one on monday to see if maybe that's the problem. If it was a dead battery, it wouldn't fire up after sitting would it? Not like BAM and start up.... if it were the Alt, when I did the + terminal removal with the car running it would have dies, because I had my sub and amp hooked up, my headlights, and heater/blower going when I did it.

Now with that said, I JUST got back from checking the two terminals on my starter, one being a spade, and the other being a 12?mm nut that attaches to the B+? terminal, it's been a while since I've done my automotive electrical class, but shouldn't there be 3 terminals on the starter? Guess not on these anyways...

Is it going to cause permanent damage to the car if I continue driving it, as I'm not gonna have another day off til next saturday, and I don't usually get off work until after 5, so it'll have to be a weekend junkyard run.

It's still missing, like at idle, Could it possibly be the ign coil that is drawing off the power and discharging it?

[Racerboy]

my grandpa is having similar problems with his caymen gt race car. Hard starting, and the alternators are still good. His first alternator just went out from being old, but when he put a new one on, it worked for about a year, then had electrical problems ever since. At first, he thought the new alternator went out, and was pissed off because it was just after the warranty ended, but he bought another anyway, but kept the "bad" one, thinking maybe he could use it as a core eventually. Then he had the same problem with the new alternator, and decided to check the old one, and found it was still good, as was the new one. He found out that the connection to the alternator was not very good, and fixed the connection, which made the issue dissapear for one race, but it happened again at race after that one. Checked the connection, and it was good. We tried everything we could think of, but it still isn't working right. We got fed up and bought another battery and just run one battery for the first half of the race, and switch it at the halfway point. Hopefully you can figure it out.... We gave up after a year of trouble, lol!

[Lord_Vader]

Ok, so my cousin came over and we tested the voltage drain on the two batteries I have. The one that was in it for the majority of the time I've been troubleshooting this, read 12.61 and decreasing at a 2 second interval, the other battery, showed no drain. He came to the conclusion that the new-ish battery had a dead cell in it.

SO I changed the battery over, and it fired right up. NOW it STILL won't crank. Had two tests ran today, one at Advance, and one at Autozone,

Autozone 'couldn't print me out a statistic sheet, but here is what advance had for me:

This is as verbatim as I feel like getting, but I'll give it in detail

Battery: Replace battery - Voltage 12.70 Measured 374 CCA, Rated 540 CCA, Temp 78%

Starter: Cranking normal - Voltage - 9.93V - Amps - 156.9A, Time - 968Ms

Charging system Test: Results: Low Voltage - No load 13.05V/2.4A Loaded - 11.83V/-20.2A (Yes that's NEGATIVE 20.2A) Battery drain test .10A (Pass)

[Lord_Vader]

Well an update of sorts I suppose...

My cousin came back into town and brought me his multimeter, so as soon as my battery is done charging, I'm going to hook everything back up, start the car, and do current readings on the alt, battery and POSSIBLY the starter, albeit I don't feel like climbing underneath an already low car....on gravel.... BUT if it calls for it, then that's what I'll do.

I checked my BTN fuse, and it seemed ok, a little corrosion on the coils that are inside the fuse itself that run vertical, but that's nothing too serious, I wouldn't assume. This was an overnight problem, and I didn't do anything to the car in those 2 days that would warrant the car to want to drain every time I drove it under load. I'm still kind of puzzled, but I guess this would be a good time to rig a test light and go checking fuses.

I'll report back as soon as I have some progress.

OH and for the EGT guys that want to make removing an alternator such an ordeal, all you have to do is (Carefully) remove the VICS solenoids, 2 10mm bolts on the bracket, and the fuel line that connects to the vacuum itself (also 2 10mm bolts) and move the entire vac system (carefully, I reiterate) up, and out of the way. Pull the fuel line CAREFULLY and inspect the O-ring as well, but pull it out as carefully as possible, it will require some oomph, so don't give it 50% and expect it to budge.... After the solenoids have been unplugged and moved, unbolt the 1 14mm on the adjustment bracket closest to the firewall, and loosen DO NOT REMOVE the other 14mm under the P/S Engine mount. Assuming the belt is off, slide the alt towards the firewall, and let the adjustment bracket dangle as low as you can get it, and assuming you have no A/C like myself, it should just come up and out.

If you have A/C...... Dunno what to tell you besides: Be creative!!

Anyways, I'll let y'all know something as soon as I get the battery fully charged and run it around the block a few times. If I still get a headscratcher, I guess I'll be back to rant some more...